I think we should recognize the importance of time. I have change my whole political position through my life, I was an right-wing liberal, conservative, even Catholic ! I then met people with different positions, that were willing to have good faith discussion about political disagreements.
Did I change my mind during these discussions. No, of course not. But were there useless ? Not at all. Several years were needed for me to destroy and rebuild a new coherent vision of the world.
Also, we have to recognize that this process can be painfull. If we are talking about individuals, caring about the impact our discourse on their mind is not only kind, but also a key part of an efficient strategy if you hope to change someone’s mind.
(That of course does not apply to structures, that by definition don’t have feelings. Or allegories of such structures. I will happily call Elon Musk a de facto murderer asshole if talking about capitalism through his figure. But if I had a sincere discussion one on one with a literal capitalist, with the hope to change them, that would rarely be a fruitful strategy. Unless shocking them seems efficient.)
Anyway, even if I sometimes (often ?) disagree with you, I hope I will be able to hear what you have to say and that you will hear the critics, so that we both slowly move towards more a precise and pertinent comprehension of the world.
Yeah for sure, my views have evolved over time as well and having my ideas challenged played a significant role in that. I think you’re absolutely right that we tend to initially react negatively to information that contradicts what we believe, but sometimes we keep thinking about it afterwards and our views evolve as a result.
It helps if you dont think of it as winning or losing, but exchanging views.
totally
my arguments turn into wars of attrition until I break down
No. You make good arguments and I am amazed by the energy you put into them. Just keep political content where appropriate and your contribution is appreciated.
thanks :)
You and me both buddy.
This forum format strongly encourages pointless arguments because of the lack of immediate personal response and anonymity. It was evident in Usenet and IRC already in 80s and 90s, where pointless and very fiery arguments were happening all the time. Even though modern platforms like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook obviously do everything they can to make the problem even worse (because it’s directly good for their bottom line), they did not invent the fundamental toxicity.
I have improved my thought patterns from these discussions, though. It’s just not obvious to anyone watching, because the improvement almost never happens directly and immediately from the current discussion. But it happens over time. Hopefully towards the better and not so much towards the worse.
I am also in this picture.
