That’s funny because I think the entire middle east is apartheid. Jews are only allowed to live in one small strip. They are not allowed to own land in Jordan. They are not allowed to practice their religion in Saudi Arabia. They have been ethnically cleansed from Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and Syria.
I’m just going to answer you and @JustZ@lemmy.world 's comment above at the same time.
What’s the hell is your point?
Generally, when someone mentions something like the existence of some admirable quality in a country facing criticism or a terrible quality in a different country, it’s irrelevant to the point at hand. It’s either to derail a conversation or terminate it.
The conversation thread is about the fact that Israelis should not be held responsible carte blanche for atrocities committed by their government, because many lack political representation and face extremely oppressive prejudice from their government.
If you’re arguing that the presence of any Arabs within power at all disproves their overall repression, in this context you’re arguing against my point that they should NOT be held responsible for the crimes of their government. Is your point that Israel Palestinians are guilty of genocide in Gaza? Think about how inane that is.
And if you’re pointing out that regionally, Jews are an oppressed group… well then what? What does the fact that Qatar and UAE and Jordon are repressive mean in this context? It is wildly off-topic, and also utterly irrelevant that Israel’s neighbors suck too. You know what? I don’t think we should send weapons to Iran or Egypt or Saudi Arabia either. That’s not exactly a hot take.
Almost everyone absolutely thinks Saudi Arabis is abhorrent, any involvement they hsve with any human rights groups is instantly identified as whitewashing and becomes a meme. Protests in Iran receieved wide global attention and support. We don’t hold Israel to a different light. It’s the same light, Israel is just one if the really bad baddies.
I don’t know that dude’s point but my point is that even though the light of democracy may seem dim right now in Israel, it’s still there and must be protected. No legitimate human rights will come from Islamic law or pan Islamism because religious law is made up by church muckity mucks as they go along, and any right they grant can be taken at their whim. Meanwhile, the good fortune of democracy on this earth is closely tied to the humanity of all mankind, and ill fight anyone that violently insists otherwise. Like it’s fine if you want to live like it’s the dark ages but don’t cross the border or shoot at boats. Maybe if the Likuds survive the next election the idea of smothering the baby in its crib might be more palatable to me. I’m not ready to feed a burgeoning democracy to Iranian far-right extremists or their proxies, just yet.
I agree with you. I’d like more democracy is Israel.
I think that people ARE going to need to reimagine what Israel is, though. People – including folks like Einstein – have been saying since it’s founding that it is fundamentally incompatible to have a multi-ethnic democratic ethnostate. It’s internally contradictory. You have to lose one of those words.
Jewish nationalists would like to lose the multi-ethnic part. Religious extremists would like to drop the democratic part (and probably the multi-ethnic part too). I’d like to drop the ethnostate. I think Israel can be a democracy that welcomes Jews AND Palestinians. But to be frank, democracy and Zionism have been looking increasingly incompatible for a long time, and a lot of folks in the US need to start recognizing that.
ALL non-Muslim religious practices are not allowed in Saudi Arabia, they hate EVERYONE else, not directed specifically at Jews. Alsp, I lived in Jordan for most of my life and have never seen any law to indicate that claim. I also tried to google that. Could you source that claim? Because if it is true, then it would be directly contradicting the Jordanian constitution.
My friend’s grandmother is a Palestinian Jew who lives in Jordan and never seems to have had any legal trouble (even in the religious marriage court).
And yes, Jews from Arab countries have been cleansed and forced to leave during this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
But that was only one factor. Many simply immigrate for pull or push factors. That is not to undermine the terrible event of anyone being forced out of their home.
Finally, it’s good to remember what Israel did to those Yemeni Jews, whether expelled or leaving to build a better future:
We need to recognize that supremacy and oppression are symptoms of destructive settler-colonial Zionism. And that it needs to end. Israel is not the Jewish state Jews deserve… they deseeve much better as dignified people than to have this country (founded on violence, lies, and colonialism) drag their name in the mud and use the holocaust to justify genociding Palestinians. Jews deserve better than an undemocratic apartheid state that indoctrinate them from the cradle to the grave.
That’s funny because I think the entire middle east is apartheid. Jews are only allowed to live in one small strip. They are not allowed to own land in Jordan. They are not allowed to practice their religion in Saudi Arabia. They have been ethnically cleansed from Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and Syria.
I’m just going to answer you and @JustZ@lemmy.world 's comment above at the same time.
What’s the hell is your point?
Generally, when someone mentions something like the existence of some admirable quality in a country facing criticism or a terrible quality in a different country, it’s irrelevant to the point at hand. It’s either to derail a conversation or terminate it.
The conversation thread is about the fact that Israelis should not be held responsible carte blanche for atrocities committed by their government, because many lack political representation and face extremely oppressive prejudice from their government.
If you’re arguing that the presence of any Arabs within power at all disproves their overall repression, in this context you’re arguing against my point that they should NOT be held responsible for the crimes of their government. Is your point that Israel Palestinians are guilty of genocide in Gaza? Think about how inane that is.
And if you’re pointing out that regionally, Jews are an oppressed group… well then what? What does the fact that Qatar and UAE and Jordon are repressive mean in this context? It is wildly off-topic, and also utterly irrelevant that Israel’s neighbors suck too. You know what? I don’t think we should send weapons to Iran or Egypt or Saudi Arabia either. That’s not exactly a hot take.
Figure out what the hell your point is.
Almost everyone absolutely thinks Saudi Arabis is abhorrent, any involvement they hsve with any human rights groups is instantly identified as whitewashing and becomes a meme. Protests in Iran receieved wide global attention and support. We don’t hold Israel to a different light. It’s the same light, Israel is just one if the really bad baddies.
I don’t know that dude’s point but my point is that even though the light of democracy may seem dim right now in Israel, it’s still there and must be protected. No legitimate human rights will come from Islamic law or pan Islamism because religious law is made up by church muckity mucks as they go along, and any right they grant can be taken at their whim. Meanwhile, the good fortune of democracy on this earth is closely tied to the humanity of all mankind, and ill fight anyone that violently insists otherwise. Like it’s fine if you want to live like it’s the dark ages but don’t cross the border or shoot at boats. Maybe if the Likuds survive the next election the idea of smothering the baby in its crib might be more palatable to me. I’m not ready to feed a burgeoning democracy to Iranian far-right extremists or their proxies, just yet.
I agree with you. I’d like more democracy is Israel.
I think that people ARE going to need to reimagine what Israel is, though. People – including folks like Einstein – have been saying since it’s founding that it is fundamentally incompatible to have a multi-ethnic democratic ethnostate. It’s internally contradictory. You have to lose one of those words.
Jewish nationalists would like to lose the multi-ethnic part. Religious extremists would like to drop the democratic part (and probably the multi-ethnic part too). I’d like to drop the ethnostate. I think Israel can be a democracy that welcomes Jews AND Palestinians. But to be frank, democracy and Zionism have been looking increasingly incompatible for a long time, and a lot of folks in the US need to start recognizing that.
Some clarifitcations and corrections:
ALL non-Muslim religious practices are not allowed in Saudi Arabia, they hate EVERYONE else, not directed specifically at Jews. Alsp, I lived in Jordan for most of my life and have never seen any law to indicate that claim. I also tried to google that. Could you source that claim? Because if it is true, then it would be directly contradicting the Jordanian constitution.
My friend’s grandmother is a Palestinian Jew who lives in Jordan and never seems to have had any legal trouble (even in the religious marriage court).
And yes, Jews from Arab countries have been cleansed and forced to leave during this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world But that was only one factor. Many simply immigrate for pull or push factors. That is not to undermine the terrible event of anyone being forced out of their home.
Finally, it’s good to remember what Israel did to those Yemeni Jews, whether expelled or leaving to build a better future:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Children_Affair
We need to recognize that supremacy and oppression are symptoms of destructive settler-colonial Zionism. And that it needs to end. Israel is not the Jewish state Jews deserve… they deseeve much better as dignified people than to have this country (founded on violence, lies, and colonialism) drag their name in the mud and use the holocaust to justify genociding Palestinians. Jews deserve better than an undemocratic apartheid state that indoctrinate them from the cradle to the grave.