Al Jazeera has a timeline going. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza Israel-Palestine escalation live news: Hamas starts Operation Al-Aqsa Flood
As an outsider, I read about land being reclaimed by Isreali settlers but cannot see how this is different to any other similar situation, like the Ukraine conflict.
No no Russia is evil for invading Ukraine. But Palestinians are evil for being invaded by Israel
From my understanding is Israel has been oppressing Palestinians for years now. This is Palestine “fuck you” move that, imo, is long overdue. I do not want this conflict, but Israel has this coming.
The non-combatants being murdered did not “have it coming”, and thinking otherwise is psychotic.
Hamas could have restricted themselves to army bases; they’re not hidden. Instead they stormed nearby towns and started gunning down anyone they could find. There is simply no justification for this.
And before anyone asks, every innocent Palestinian murdered by the IDF is just as much of a crime. This isn’t how any progress is made. Who knows how many Gazans are going to pay for this, which Hamas is perfectly well aware of because it doesn’t actually care about them.
Youre right, I made my comment at about the start of this. I dont necessarily change my “this was coming” stance but at no point did i think this would change anything and will definitely make things worse for everyone involved.
Netanyahu was elected despite Israel expanding so I guess the majority of citizens were fine with taking palestinian lands. If you’re fine with stealing something you’re fine with taking the risk that it will be fought for. They thought they could do it without risking their lives and then fucked around and found out.
And Hamas was also elected, and if you spend any time on Arabic social media, you’ll see this being applauded everywhere.
Is it that hard to think at even a slightly higher level? If you think these attacks were justified because of prior violence, then you also think that Israel is now justified at a brutal response, which will further radicalize all sides and make peace even more impossible than it already is. I mean, do you want Gaza to become a flattened field of rubble? Because that’s the road that you’re talking about going down.
I don’t know much about this conflict, so all I say is meant as big "maybe"s.
As a settler moving into occupied territory, maybe you shouldn’t be counted as 100% civilian. Not a military target either. I think it blurs the line.
Sucks for the next generation.
Gaza is a prison and Israel is.the warden
It was only a matter of time. You can only oppress innocent people so much before they have no other choice left behind.
As usual the world turns a blind eye to this oppression.
Of course, now, Israel will feel they have the mandate to obliterate them even more.
Innocent my ass. Oppressors my ass. They negotiate in bad faith and have never wanted a peace, nor will they ever achieve anything by this violence. They’re a disgusting one trick pony that the world has seen through.
Lynching and raping and mutilating bodies and killing civilians for fun are not among things possibly justified by any oppression. As I’ve said elsewhere, they behave like Azeris or Turks. If you want a truly independent Palestinian state, then you’d want these thugs squashed, otherwise they’ll create a picture impeding the creation of such a state for decades.
What’s your view on 9/11?
I don’t remember the U.S. oppressing the Saudis. When did that happen?
Osama Bin Laden:
Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people.
Did American civilians ‘have it coming’ on 9/11?
Do Israeli civilians ‘have it coming’ now?
“Our people?” Bin Laden wasn’t a Palestinian. He was just lying. So I’m pretty sure that’s not the same.
He claimed he was defending his fellow arabs.
Would 9/11 have been justified if Bin Laden had been a Palestinian?
I don’t play games like that. He wasn’t a Palestinian. He wasn’t fighting for Palestinians. That was a bullshit cover. It was a Saudi operation. It was funded by the Saudis and 17 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis. If there is ever a Palestinian attack on U.S. soil, and I doubt there will be since they don’t have the funding or the organization, we can talk about whether or not it is justified and what measures, if any, should be taken.
But I’m not interested in “Would Hitler’s invasion of Poland have been justified if the Poles were the ones oppressing the Jews” questions.
America deserved 9/11
The conflict in Israel / Palestine started under British rule, before the proper existence of either Israel of Palestine as we know them today. The population that would eventually declare Israeli independence came riding in on migrant ships, not tanks. The one decisive moment everyone can agree an internationally recognized border was violated was the Israeli expansion in '67. So I would say that it’s fruitful and apt to ask “how is demanding Israel return to '67 borders any different from demanding that Russia go back to Russia?”, but stretching the analogy to the whole I/P conflict is probably out of place.
The creation of the Israeli state was the worst move in geopolitics since the scramble for Africa and the border fuckery that ensued from that. They couldn’t have stuck the Jews somewhere more hospitable than the holy land of two opposing religions?
they should have put it in New Jersey instead tbh
I have to admit my understanding of Hamas is imperfect at best, I’m mostly aware of them from their work during Israel’s illegal invasion of Southern Lebanon…
But doesn’t this seem uncharacteristically… aggressive for Hamas? Attacking civilians at a music festival?
Taking civilians hostages?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/hostages-hamas-israel-gaza/index.html
What has caused this sudden change in their MO? If you had told me Hezbollah was doing it, I wouldn’t have batted an eye, (and they seem to approve - https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets-attack-palestinians/card/hezbollah-praises-hamas-attack-warns-against-normalising-ties-with-israel-rbqLpR9QDzCyiUGQw0xl) but this seems just so much more radical than Hamas has been previously.
Hamas, for years, had “the extermination of the Jewish people” in their charter. Not “drive the Jews out of Israel,” but exterminate them.
I believe they technically removed it a few years ago, but they obviously didn’t ditch the sentiment. They’ve also fired rockets at civilian targets multiple times.
Hamas is a terrorist organization masquerading as a governing body.
militants travel from palestine to palestine
“Palestinia”Terrorists momentThis is going to be a shitshow on Lemmy with the amount of tankies on here who’ll be defending terrorists killing civilians.
I just block them all, maybe i should make my block list public lol
A lot of them already went on there during red September when the the Hexbear federation happened. The ones who’ll use this a way to justify their mask off anti-Semitism will be going on there too.
You can have issues with the state of Israel and Palestine without being antisemitic
Yeah they need to be defederated these bastards are just a pain in the ass.
Yeah, they’re straight up authoritarian propaganda. Lemmy.ml isn’t much better, they’ll delete your comments and leave outright lies, just happened to me a couple days ago.
Yeah best instances are Shitjustworks and burggit.
Do not fucking use us in the same sentence as that place.
deleted by creator
No, no, these are peace operatives /s. But yes, get rid of them all. They have a death wish, simple as that. They can never/ won’t ever build themselves up. The Arab world is moving past the Palestinian nonsense cause. They should’ve done a deal years ago instead continuing the bloodshed. Life could be so much better for them if they only chose a better way.
Say the same of Ukrainian then.
Ah yes the Palestinian people again show their endless peacefulness. Of course they will tell that they are the victims again, and have no other choice but to launch rockets.
Fuck those terrorists. There will never be peace as long as the Palestinian people will not oppose those terrorists, but they even support them.
Or maybe there will never be peace until Israeli people stop voting for right wing religious and nationalistic extremists ? Really, this country has gone worse and worse since Rabin was murdered… 😥
The existence of Israel is rooted in right wing and religious pretext. They intentionally went in and founded a nation in a sea of enemies. It will always have a right wing majority.
You simply need jingoistic, proactive, authoritarian influences. Think of it like a person being switched into survival mode.
Or maybe Palestine should stop murdering Israelis before? Why do you defend the terrorists and shift the blame into Israel? Ever read about Israel’s history?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
Not that this justifies terrorists murdering civilians.
Paywall?
That’s weird. None for me. I’ll copy paste (thank the gods this isn’t reddit where that sometimes wasn’t allowed):
All signs indicate that the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is prepared to wage a protracted battle in the battered Gaza Strip as it seeks to crush the capabilities of the Islamist militant group Hamas. The ongoing conflict has already exacted a bloody toll, with the Palestinian death count approaching the total of Israel’s 2008-2009 bombing campaign and ground offensive in Gaza, which led to the deaths of at least 1,383 Palestinians over three weeks.
Netanyahu wants to wholly demilitarize the Palestinian enclave, beginning with the network of tunnels that allow Hamas’s fighters to infiltrate into Israeli territory. But Hamas, a dogged outfit that thrives in wartime, is digging in its heels. On Tuesday, a Hamas spokesman said Netanyahu’s “threats did not frighten Hamas or the Palestinian people.”
The current fighting — a clash between Israel’s vastly superior armed forces and Hamas’s insurgents — obscures the greater challenges facing Israelis and Palestinians, including the thorny question of how to accord equal rights to millions of Palestinians living under occupation in the event that a separate Palestinian state turns out not to be viable.
It also obscures Hamas’s curious history. To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.
At the time, Israel’s main enemy was the late Yasser Arafat’s Fatah party, which formed the heart of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah was secular and cast in the mold of other revolutionary, leftist guerrilla movements waging insurgencies elsewhere in the world during the Cold War. The PLO carried out assassinations and kidnappings and, although recognized by neighboring Arab states, was considered a terrorist organization by Israel; PLO operatives in the occupied territories faced brutal repression at the hands of the Israeli security state.
Meanwhile, the activities of Islamists affiliated with Egypt’s banned Muslim Brotherhood were allowed in the open in Gaza — a radical departure from when the Strip was administered by the secular-nationalist Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. Egypt lost control of Gaza to Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which saw Israel also seize the West Bank. In 1966, Nasser had executed Sayyid Qutb, one of the Brotherhood’s leading intellectuals. The Israelis saw Qutb’s adherents in the Palestinian territories, including the wheelchair-bound Sheik Ahmed Yassin, as a useful counterweight to Arafat’s PLO.
Continued in reply to this comment due to character limit.
“When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake,” one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Higgins. “But at the time nobody thought about the possible results.”
Higgins’s article is worth reading in full. He goes on to outline the type of assistance the Israelis initially gave Yassin, whom the PLO at one time deemed a “collaborator,” and Gaza’s other Islamists:
Israel’s military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the [2008-9 Operation Cast Lead].
Yassin’s Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel’s Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.
Eventually, the tables turned. After the 1993 Oslo accords, Israel’s formal recognition of the PLO and the start of what we now know as the peace process, Hamas was the Israelis’ bete noire. Hamas refused to accept Israel or renounce violence and became perhaps the leading institution of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, which, far beyond religious ideology, is the main reason for its continued popularity among Palestinians.
Yassin was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004. In 2007, after a legitimate Hamas election victory that rankled both the West and Fatah, the Islamist group took over Gaza — a move that led to strict Israeli blockades and the grinding cycle of conflict that is once more repeating itself.
But, as Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Woodrow Wilson Center, observes, a strange, self-sustaining relationship remains. Israel’s hawkish government — comprising many politicians who have little interest in seeing the creation of a separate Palestinian state — dwells on the security threat that Hamas’s crude rockets pose. Hamas depends, Miller writes, on “an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance.”
And so, he concludes, they are “two parties who can’t seem to live with one another — or apparently without one another either.”
Thank you! Did you manually have to put all those “>” in?
Anndddd what is your opinion on the nonstop onslaught of Israel against the Palestinians?
Why are the Palestinians so fucking stubborn to negotiate in good faith and to bring some sort of peace and conclusion to this bloodshed? Aren’t they tired of killing and destruction? Perhaps they could build something great. It’s the same fucking story all the time. Nobody cares anymore. You only get so many chances before you’re the problem. Like the saying goes, “If you go through your day and you meet an asshole. You’ve met an asshole. If all you meet are assholes, then maybe you’re the asshole.” They’re the asshole. There’s an insane cognitive dissonance there. Like shit and get off the pot, actually sue for peace, actually try to do something instead of sending idiots to slaughter.
Why are the Israelis so fucking stubborn to negotiate in good faith and to bring some sort of peace and conclusion to this bloodshed?
Shit goes both ways.
Why can’t they just accept being caged like animals?
