Seems like with all AI-enabling and just works out of the box experiences with VSCode and alike, makes GNU Emacs absolete. I’m aware of AI packages for GNU Emacs, but don’t think is worth the investiement so much; I would mostly save it for org mode, TUI, and some other few packages. But for programming, it doesn’t seem lile worth the investment, and use VSCode instead.
Certainly knowing things will always be valuable - but the effect of assistants and LLMs may be to change what it is valuable to know by devaluing a great heap of current generation’s programmers’s stock and trade.
As an addenda: by value in the above I mean “instrumental value” or more specifically, valuable to the rich who want to exploit the skills of others to become yet richer. There is always intrinsic value to knowing for the people who love to know.
— fomosapien@emacs.ch, https://emacs.ch/users/fomosapien/statuses/111264462444461233
Don’t use emacs instead of vscode. Use it instead of your operating system.
Note, that GNU EMACS has an AI psychotherapist chatbot, activated using
M-x doctor.Use what works for you.
Guess I’ll be using GNU Emacs, VSCode, Helix, Eclipse hsha
Copilot’s integration with VSCode is slick. But so were ActiveX plugins back in the day, and any number of other technologies from them. Microsoft isn’t doing this out of the goodness of what passes for a heart. There will be an inevitable enshittification process, one that you can avoid by not getting into their ecosystem in the first place.
On the plus side, I just ask chatgpt to generate code and I copy/paste it and fix it up in emacs. It’s not as slick but it works fine. It’s honestly probably better than being able to just hit enter and accept whatever is generated. I’ve been on a screenshare and seen people hit enter or whatever to accept copilot’s suggestion, and then spend a bunch of time debugging the subtly wrong code because making it that easy meant they didn’t think about it.
Also, it’s only a matter of time before it becomes practical to run your own good-enough model locally and have an Emacs package that integrates with that. The hardware and models are already ready for it, there just needs to be integration work.
Copilot’s integration with VSCode is slick.
Copilot violates a number of licenses, possibly including mine, by mixing other people’s code into yours without giving proper credits.
🤷 I don’t use it, but I acknowledge that it looks slick, having seen other people use it.
It’s always nice to see a computer do your work for you. I agree. ;-)
However, GNU Emacs can do that too.
Maybe they will pay a little fine—and you won’t be getting the money either—while their profits skyrocket. It’s always like this, so I don’t even bother.
If more people bothered, they could be stopped.
Is it the right tool for every job? Probably not any more, but it’s still the right tool for many.
I have migrated to VSCode for most of my daily dev work because its language support is undeniably better (especially on a corp machine), but I always keep an emacs window open for a whole bunch of different stuff:
- ephemeral todo lists
- plaintext and markdown editing
- quick-and-dirty Python or shell scripting
- project planning and other org mode goodies
- all the other weird little stuff that falls through the cracks of an editor but is super easy in emacs
I have migrated to VSCode for most of my daily dev work because its language support is undeniably better
GNU Emacs’s auto-indentation is superb. Nothing comes even close.
Can you give an example of a specific language where emacs auto indent is better besides lisp?
Go and Rust, from what I remember. I haven’t touched VS Code in a while, but I seriously doubt that the current version can indent any language better than GNU Emacs does. I’m open for being proven wrong, of course.
That’s also a very similar setup I have. Nothing can replace org-mode, so at least Emacs will have to stay for that. Also using it in server mode is nice to reopen a new window in an instance. I also have many tiny scripts I made through out the years to generate random things for work, and also query the radio station we listen to give my the artist and song title that is playing. Can’t work without those ^^
But LSPs have done an excellent job of separating language specific tooling from editors - and Emacs can use them as well.
I also think this is the way. Glad to know I am not alone. Thank you!
PS: I have a pretty nice and modularized GNU Emacs config, but it’s to me just as Lex we are missing a ton by constraining only on GNU Emacs.
@nyl
LolI’m actually sad since acnkowledging that as I invested too much in GNU Emacs
If you don’t already know this video, you would benefit a lot from it, I think.
“I used to spend hours trying to get the image on the right page - now I use org-mode latex and just accept that it’s impossible”
Hahahah actually this in conjunction with Lex’s talks/interviews is probably what got me thinking more about all this. Masterpiece anyway
@nyl Emacs will always be worth the effort. In years to come, it will be those who learned rather than used “assistants” who will know things.
Certainly knowing things will always be valuable - but the effect of assistants and LLMs may be to change what it is valuable to know by devaluing a great heap of current generation’s programmers’s stock and trade.
As an addenda: by value in the above I mean “instrumental value” or more specifically, valuable to the rich who want to exploit the skills of others to become yet richer. There is always intrinsic value to knowing for the people who love to know.
I quoted your comment in the original post if you’re ok this, thanks for your comment
@nyl Personally, I’d be going *out of my way* to disable information-leaking features like that.
#Proprietary suggestion & AI engine? No thanks.
Models could be run offline and/or free, e.g. gpt4all, starhugger for emacs, huggingchat… Also, this is a fast-pace changing industry, we can only try and adapt using such tools at our disposal. You might use a tool or service that uses AI and don’t even notice it.
I use Emacs for two reasons. Sunk cost, of course, but also the text input-methods for other natural languages. That’s like the main killer feature why I don’t even look at other editors. Anytime I try to type some dïäcrïtïcs into acme or whatever it’s a nightmare of compose sequences or deadkeys.
Also paredit is pretty sick.
Haskell. It might be kind of an odd case though given the different ways.
Until the day vscode offers something like elisp, no
Why so? Do you work with lisp languages? I’ve been recently fiding learning [e]lisp a con since it’s basically a domain specific language. Only Clojure has a bit of commercial opportunities, but even then it’s better to learn JavaScript/TypeScript for its greater use cases. Also, if I wanted to play with functional programming I’d go Haskell, Lean, or even Shen.
@nyl @Dizbdeedee If you view computing as just a bunch of commercial opportunities, yes, lisp kinda sucks, but if you view computing as a discipline for expressing thoughts in a formal, understandable and efficient manner, than Clojure, Common Lisp, Racket and even Emacs Lisp are among the top languages out there and JavaScript is near the bottom a step or two above brainfuck and perl. Haskell, Lean and Shen are also very good, and all of them owe a lot to the Lisp tradition.
it’s a domain specific language
Yeah, but it’s very configurable and has some extensions that have really changed how I work in an editor, that I can completely change the internals for on the fly, which is not a priority for vscode
I have no strong attachment to lisp and I agree having to learn it is a con and a time sink, but I’ve done some small extension development for vscode and hated it
Nevermind that you already know the language when it’s behind layers of api cruft and a seperate compiler, then the debugger gives you minifed javascript bleh
Commercial arguments are a thing, but a bit reductive no? How would vscode extension development help you earn a job that grinding leetcode or that specific role would be better suited for
I’ve done some small extension development for vscode and hated it
I respect your argument
Commercial arguments are a thing, but a bit reductive no?
I meant you’re putting into practice a language/tech that has real and great demand than one that has little to none outside the specific domain of a text editor. Not that it automatically lands you money
@nyl
Just use whatever works for you man, no need to advocate your preferencesI’m happy that you found your new home, let’s close this!
@DizbdeedeeLol don’t take me wrong, I’m still using Emacs alongside other editors. Case closed then.
@nyl yeah I’m not against meaningful comparisons but this started turning into a flamewar which I had more than enough in the past years. ;)
peace
Yes, GNU Emacs is still worth it. No, VS Code is a mess.
