I really hope this is some kind of poorly thought out gag.
Fascism is characterized by support for a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
So that’s, what, 4/7 at a quick glance? If I had less to do I’d dig in a little and see if he fits the other three. Unfortunately, a spat on Lemmy isn’t really worth the time.
It’s not my job to teach you what words mean, and yet here I am. This will be my last good-faith response. If you’re just here to troll, do it elsewhere.
That’s the thing though. Those other three are pretty important.
It’s not a troll, I just think fascism is uniquely dangerous and we should use words correctly. This is the same twisting of words that lets people smear Zelinsky or whoever as a fascist. You can always find some points of commonality but you need the whole definition to match, not just parts of it.
And saying it’s open fascism is even more silly. It’s only open fascism if they’re self-describing that way. There aren’t any openly fascist countries today.
You know, I lied. I appreciate an honest response, particularly when coming from such a vitriol laced exchange, so I take back that “last good-faith response” statement.
I do still disagree to some capacity, and think that your take is a matter of muddying the methodology with the goal/results. The autocratic dictator with a strangle hold on the media, using their own version of the law to kill/jail their political opponents, is far more important to what makes a fascist than other elements. But there’s a genuine argument to be made that if I can’t be bothered to do a deeper read on the guy and the state of current day Venezula, maybe I shouldn’t throw around the F word so readily, so I’ll take that. I stand by the “the short description is pretty likely a fascist dictator,” but admit that, if we were to take a more serious, academic approach to it, I would absolutely be jumping the gun.
Regardless, I appreciate the de-escalation and genuine take on the subject. The snarky one liners and snap backs from both of us were disrespectful to both of us.
Cheers mate and I apologize for my tone which probably contributed to this conversation going in that direction initially. Sometimes that snark just feels so good haha.
Personally I prefer to describe these types of governments as run of the mill authoritarian (or totalitarian if they progress far enough). I do think the ultranationalism and xenophobia is an important aspect of fascism though–that’s what makes them able to commit atrocities beyond just historical monarchies or other types of oppressive governments. The dehumanization of anyone who is different combined with that totalitarian power makes mass murder way more likely.
I don’t see that in Venezuela right now but what I really wanted was for someone to make the case that it was rather than just saying they’re fascist because they’re bad. Yes, they are bad, but I really don’t like the simplification of complex political ideas down into quasi-slurs.
Fair enough. My use of the term fascist here was hyperbolic; likely erroneous. Ultranationalism is pretty important to fascism—dare i say fascism can’t exist without it—so I’ll fall on my own sword here.
It’s only open fascism if they’re self-describing that way. There aren’t any openly fascist countries today.
I’d push back slightly here though. It isn’t attractive to self identify as fascist these days, so i think we’d expect essentially no countries (or individuals) doing so. America is crypto-fascist as things stand under Trump.
Sure I agree, but to me the term “open fascist” implies there is no attempt to hide what they are. If you meant it otherwise then I don’t understand what it’s meant to imply.
Agreed but just to give you a counterpoint to your last part.
It’s not because they don’t describe themselves as fascist that they are not fascist. The European far-right hates it when you tell them that they are far right. They always respond by saying no I am « conservative » or « I just want to protect our culture » etc…
I guess you still didn’t look up the definition of fascist?
I don’t know what kind of history degree would leave you so ignorant of this issue but maybe you should ask for a refund.
I really hope this is some kind of poorly thought out gag.
So that’s, what, 4/7 at a quick glance? If I had less to do I’d dig in a little and see if he fits the other three. Unfortunately, a spat on Lemmy isn’t really worth the time.
It’s not my job to teach you what words mean, and yet here I am. This will be my last good-faith response. If you’re just here to troll, do it elsewhere.
That’s the thing though. Those other three are pretty important.
It’s not a troll, I just think fascism is uniquely dangerous and we should use words correctly. This is the same twisting of words that lets people smear Zelinsky or whoever as a fascist. You can always find some points of commonality but you need the whole definition to match, not just parts of it.
And saying it’s open fascism is even more silly. It’s only open fascism if they’re self-describing that way. There aren’t any openly fascist countries today.
You know, I lied. I appreciate an honest response, particularly when coming from such a vitriol laced exchange, so I take back that “last good-faith response” statement.
I do still disagree to some capacity, and think that your take is a matter of muddying the methodology with the goal/results. The autocratic dictator with a strangle hold on the media, using their own version of the law to kill/jail their political opponents, is far more important to what makes a fascist than other elements. But there’s a genuine argument to be made that if I can’t be bothered to do a deeper read on the guy and the state of current day Venezula, maybe I shouldn’t throw around the F word so readily, so I’ll take that. I stand by the “the short description is pretty likely a fascist dictator,” but admit that, if we were to take a more serious, academic approach to it, I would absolutely be jumping the gun.
Regardless, I appreciate the de-escalation and genuine take on the subject. The snarky one liners and snap backs from both of us were disrespectful to both of us.
Cheers mate and I apologize for my tone which probably contributed to this conversation going in that direction initially. Sometimes that snark just feels so good haha.
Personally I prefer to describe these types of governments as run of the mill authoritarian (or totalitarian if they progress far enough). I do think the ultranationalism and xenophobia is an important aspect of fascism though–that’s what makes them able to commit atrocities beyond just historical monarchies or other types of oppressive governments. The dehumanization of anyone who is different combined with that totalitarian power makes mass murder way more likely.
I don’t see that in Venezuela right now but what I really wanted was for someone to make the case that it was rather than just saying they’re fascist because they’re bad. Yes, they are bad, but I really don’t like the simplification of complex political ideas down into quasi-slurs.
Fair enough. My use of the term fascist here was hyperbolic; likely erroneous. Ultranationalism is pretty important to fascism—dare i say fascism can’t exist without it—so I’ll fall on my own sword here.
I’d push back slightly here though. It isn’t attractive to self identify as fascist these days, so i think we’d expect essentially no countries (or individuals) doing so. America is crypto-fascist as things stand under Trump.
Sure I agree, but to me the term “open fascist” implies there is no attempt to hide what they are. If you meant it otherwise then I don’t understand what it’s meant to imply.
I would characterize it as “oblivious fascism”. The sort of, “If you think I’m a fascist because i believe x, then so be it” mentality
Agreed but just to give you a counterpoint to your last part.
It’s not because they don’t describe themselves as fascist that they are not fascist. The European far-right hates it when you tell them that they are far right. They always respond by saying no I am « conservative » or « I just want to protect our culture » etc…
Yeah you can definitely be a fascist and hide that fact. This is very common.
But it wouldn’t open fascism if you hide it.
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