In b4 someone calls me a tankie

  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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    4 days ago

    Real communist logic is that these governments were supposed to be temporary. They’re supposed to exist to transition into actual communism, where the people control the state and own the means of production, not a dictatorship. The states that call themselves communist but have a dictator are, at best, the same as a caterpillar calling itself a butterfly. Maybe it aspires to be that, but it isn’t yet, and may never be.

      • CannonFodder@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        Maybe you missed the point. Real communist countries have no dictators or any ruling class. But there aren’t any real communist countries. Countries like China that have dictators and claim to be communist aren’t.

        • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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          4 days ago

          Communist countries are called “communist” not because they’ve actually achieved communism but because they’re run by communists who want to achieve communism.

          Any country that is run by communists will be called a dictatorship whether or not they actually have a dictator. China is an example of this. You know nothing about how the Chinese government operates. You were just told they were a dictatorship and you believed it. China has better democratic outcomes than most liberal democracies (assuming that actually exists)

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            4 days ago

            I think you missed the point. An actual communist would be trying to give up their power. Meanwhile China is increasingly capitalist.

            Also, perception is not reality. I think we all know that. Why did you specifically choose to show the democratic perception index?

            • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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              4 days ago

              An actual communist would first be trying to build socialism. Which is what China is doing.

              And it’s perception because you can’t actually quantify how democratic a country is. You can only look at whether or not people feel like their government is representing them. If people don’t feel like their government represents them, then it isn’t democratic and needs to he changed.

              • Clot@lemmy.zip
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                3 days ago

                China is getting more capitalist day by day. They also do trade with israel

                I dont think china is headed in right direction.

                • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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                  3 days ago

                  China is getting more capitalist day by day.

                  What are they doing that makes them a capitalist country? As in run by capitalists not a capitalist mode of production.

                  They also do trade with israel

                  Yes and that’s bad.

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                4 days ago

                China is more capitalist than it’s ever been. How the hell is that building socialism?

                • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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                  4 days ago

                  Unless you think they were supposed to just remain an entirely agricultural society where everyone’s a farmer then sure.

                  China is using a capitalist mode of production to industrialise as it transitions to socialism.

                  • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                    4 days ago

                    No, they’re using a capitalist mode to make the elite extremely wealthy. A communist would be either prioritizing or creating companies that are owned by the state or by employees, which are working to benefit the people, not a wealthy and powerful elite. This is not what China is doing. This is obvious to everyone even remotely willing to question them.

              • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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                3 days ago

                A good indicator is not having the same leader for decades. Term limits are a democratic safeguard and China has mostly abolished them. That does not bode well.

                • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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                  3 days ago

                  How is term limits a good indicator? If you’re doing a good job why should you br kicked out after an arbitrary amount of time?

                  • Warl0k3@lemmy.world
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                    3 days ago

                    Because exceptionalism is a poison regardless of your political philosophy - other people can do an equally good job. Why is it necessary for power to be held by a singular person for so long?

                  • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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                    3 days ago

                    It is not merely about doing a good job, it is about the ethics of power. Power corrupts, so the only reasonable recourse is to share it with as many people as possible and wield it for a limited amount of time. And it’s also about ethics, what gives one person the right to have power over others for a limitless amount of time?

                    Frankly, you seem like you’re about to argue for people just doing as they’re told and not worrying their pretty little heads with this, which is against any sane left wing ideals.

                • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
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                  3 days ago

                  You have fallen prey to American exceptionalism: “It isn’t democracy unless it’s American democracy.”

                  • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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                    3 days ago

                    All European democracies have term limits too. Heck, even ancient civilizations had term limits, and disregarding those has always lead to worse outcomes for the common man.

          • CannonFodder@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            Being brainwashed doesn’t mean they’re actually democratic. Unless you define a good outcome as being blindly misinformed and happy about it.
            China has one leader, who is leader for life. His rule is absolute. Call it what you will.

            • comfy@lemmy.ml
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              3 days ago

              China has one leader, who is leader for life.

              Are you saying that as a general statement about leadership in the PRC? If so, then you can easily disprove it with the previous leaders:

              • Jiang Zemin (died 2022) - paramount leader until 2002, retired in the run-up to the 16th National Congress where Jintao had massive support to become the new party General Secretary
              • Hu Jintao (alive) - paramount leader until 2012, when Xi was elected General Secretary by the 18th National Congress

              To remain the party leader, you have to retain the support of the party. It’s not like a monarchy where there’s a right to be leader for life.

              • CannonFodder@lemmy.world
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                2 days ago

                Im saying that about now, and with Xi. He’s consolidated power and made it so he can stay as leader as long as he wants. Sure, he might retire. But he’s not getting un-‘elected’. He’s a dictator .

            • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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              3 days ago

              Saying a billion people are actually all just brainwashed is racist cope.

              Congress, which has over 1000 members is the one in charge of China and that’s pretty tricky to deal with so it’s no wonder they appoint someone to be the leader to keep things organised.

              • CannonFodder@lemmy.world
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                3 days ago

                Of course they’re brainwashed. Well quite a few know what’s up but also know to play along so they don’t get disappeared. I’m not saying western countries are much better, but Winnie the Pooh is a dictator, there’s no denying it.

                • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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                  3 days ago

                  Honey you’re the one who’s brainwashed. That’s what’s leaving you with racist shit like “oh there’s billions of asians who support their government. Can’t be they actually support their government, they must all be stupid or something”.

                  Like you’re literally calling the guy winnie the pooh because you think if you hold up a picture of a cartoon you’ll get disappeared. You’re straight up living in la la land.

          • ayyy@sh.itjust.works
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            3 days ago

            How did you come to this conclusion about the person you are replying to? Please use direct quotes.

            • Oppopity@lemmy.ml
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              3 days ago

              Okay.

              “Countries like China that have dictators and claim to be communist aren’t.”