Simply applying paint to your face isn’t racist, but if you’re doing so to impersonate a different racial group it’s definitely a racially insensitive thing. You might have no malice in doing so, but by virtue it is a form of mockery.
I’m not sure how to tell you this, but it is racist and if you think your example is proof to the contrary you really don’t understand.
Black face originates from a racist depiction of black people and while it may not get the criticism it does in the US, it’s still racist.
A big part of why racism against blacks is such a big topic in the US is because there are so many more than in Europe. There is estimated to only be ~10 million Black Europeans of African descent, while the US has ~42 million. Just because you don’t know someone that it offends doesn’t mean it isn’t racist.
This is the exact same argument I heard growing up in the Southern US. I had something like 10 black people at my school and some of them had confederate flags on their cars. The Confederate flag was considered a symbol of Southern heritage to us, with no malice behind it, furthermore it didn’t seem to offend anyone. All the same it is still racist to fly a Confederate flag.
Yeah, the US had a lot of slavery and it’s been an ever-present spectre of our history, but it’s also made us acutely aware of racism. I’ve now given you 5 different links with 2 of them coming from Black sources saying they feel like the practice is racist. One of the sources even includes the Dutch Prime Minister changing his opinion about Black Pete celebrations noting that it was offensive to others.
Even if it were just black people in the US who say it’s offensive, isn’t that enough? Surely you’re not making the argument that it’s only offensive if it’s done in the US, but totally not racist if done outside of the US?
If you want to continue strawman attacking the character of people in the US, or the US’s past, rather than having meaningful debate that’s on you, but as it stands I’ve pointed out multiple sources that say it’s racist or at least offensive to an racial group.
Look man, even if I provide you with 5 opinion pieces about it that say it’s okay would it change your mind?
Do you think black Pete or Belgium are the only ones with traditions like that?
What’s offensive or not is upon the people to decide and blacks in the US do not speak for the rest of the world.
You know there’s also black people nit offended by some or all of these traditions. What now?
Being especially racist also doesn’t make a country experts on racism. If it were the case the US wouldn’t be as racially divided as it still is. I’d argue it’s way, way worse then most first world countries to be honest.
Look man, even if I provide you with 5 opinion pieces about it that say it’s okay would it change your mind?
Sure, if they are meaningfully compelling, but if you just have some guy saying, “It’s my tradition,” it’s hardly compelling. Saying something is tradition is an argument which Americans have seen for a long time as a defense of racist stuff, especially systemic and institutional racism.
What’s offensive or not is upon the people to decide and blacks in the US do not speak for the rest of the world.
Agreed, but that’s also why I included examples of black people from other countries giving their opinions. The Afrofeminas article talks at length about it, I had to have the page translated into English so my quote may not be 100% accurate.
in several publications from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, both from Alcoy and other places, the characters carrying the scales are described as “slaves”… “Therefore It is evident that from the beginning of the parade the victims of slavery are being mocked and enslaved black people were being represented in a grotesque way.”
In an environment like the city of Alcoy, with a migrant population that normally occupies the lowest socioeconomic level and that numerically is approximately 10%, (the black-skinned population is barely 1%) it is difficult for racialized people to have the desire to raise his voice to complain about the parade. Furthermore, they will have witnessed the virulent reactions that the mere idea of not painting the pages provokes in the citizens of Alcoy.
It’s not fun for us. I know that this really matters little in this society where black face in general, and the Alcoy pages in particular, are a clear manifestation of the disturbing relationships between white fun, black domination and ridicule that come from the times of slavery.
Alcoy’s pajes are by no means the only Spanish tradition to attract criticism. Be it the re-enactment of wars between the black-painted Moors and white Christians, the frequent choice of non-black performers for the role of King Balthazar in the Three Kings parades that take place across the country, or even the Spanish-made sweets Conguitos – Little Congolese, there are many examples of Spain’s naivety to the representation of black people.
"Los Conguitos [a popular brand of chocolate] is a very crude representation of us: a black guy with a loincloth and a spear,” says Bermúdez.
The Spanish media has not helped to change the collective image of black people, argues Napi, insisting that instead “they have helped perpetuate the stereotypes.” Black people are often associated with illegal immigration or crime. Advertisements also tend to exclude the black community.
“The racism in Spain is structural,” says Gerehou.
For Macedo, racism lies in the small details and daily obstacles. For example, one of her professors asked: “What’s a girl as black as you doing in university? Perhaps you should look for a husband because you shouldn’t be here.’”
You know there’s also black people not offended by some or all of these traditions. What now?
I spoke about this earlier, you’re literally making the same argument that racists in the US have been making for over 100 years. Just because some black people don’t think it’s racist doesn’t suddenly make it not offensive.
It’s like if you said that a black person said it was ok to use the N-word so it must not be racist?
Being especially racist also doesn’t make a country experts on racism. If it were the case the US wouldn’t be as racially divided as it still is. I’d argue it’s way, way worse then most first world countries to be honest.
I would argue that racism has been a more central subject in the US in the last 100 years, but a quick study will show that discrimination has been a major part of European history. Whether discriminating against Romani persons, Jewish persons, Sub-Saharan African persons, Muslims, and more. Hell, the American colonists literally brought it over from Europe, we learned it from Europe.
EDIT: I would also add that we have already established that there is a higher percentage of black people in the US than in Europe. Another article I included cites the opinion of black Europeans that they can’t speak out about racism because they are so little represented. So it’s not that Europe isn’t as racist as the US, but very possible that it just doesn’t get spoken about as much.
I’m curious what your point is, are you saying black face is only racist in the US?
Essentially yes. The application of paint to one’s face by itself isn’t a racist act.
For some reason it’s seen as the epitome of racism in the US, but that’s a cultural thing.
Simply applying paint to your face isn’t racist, but if you’re doing so to impersonate a different racial group it’s definitely a racially insensitive thing. You might have no malice in doing so, but by virtue it is a form of mockery.
It’s not a form of mockery, that’s just the US cultural interpretation of it.
If I put on an iron man suit I’m not mocking iron man. If anything I’m giving him credit for being a cool dude.
Context matters.
I’m not sure how to tell you this, but it is racist and if you think your example is proof to the contrary you really don’t understand.
Black face originates from a racist depiction of black people and while it may not get the criticism it does in the US, it’s still racist.
A big part of why racism against blacks is such a big topic in the US is because there are so many more than in Europe. There is estimated to only be ~10 million Black Europeans of African descent, while the US has ~42 million. Just because you don’t know someone that it offends doesn’t mean it isn’t racist.
This is the exact same argument I heard growing up in the Southern US. I had something like 10 black people at my school and some of them had confederate flags on their cars. The Confederate flag was considered a symbol of Southern heritage to us, with no malice behind it, furthermore it didn’t seem to offend anyone. All the same it is still racist to fly a Confederate flag.
To help out here is an article that talks about the subject https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/30/europe/belgium-blackface-colonial-history-intl/index.html
So your evidence is an American written article about why something perceived as racist in America is racist anywhere?
You’ve gone full circle, dude.
You know it might also have something to do with that tiny thing about the southern states and slavery and so on.
Let’s just agree to disagree, you are missing my point entirely and keep doing so.
So your first rebuttal is going to attack my source when you originally referenced Marvel Comics…
Your next rebuttal is a strawman attack which does nothing to refute the rest of my argument
And then finally you just back out of the discussion. You really showed me.
If you want, here is an article by Al Jazeera (https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2020/12/4/the-netherlands-black-pete)
Here is one from the Netherlands branch of Humanity in Action (https://humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete-analyzing-a-racialized-dutch-tradition-through-the-history-of-western-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples/)
Here is one that is from the US, but includes quotes and comments from afro-spaniards (https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2023/01/05/european-peoples-obsessions-with-blackface/)
Here is one from Afrofeminas, a Spanish anti-racism group (https://afrofeminas.com/2022/12/21/4-razones-porque-los-pajes-negros-de-alcoy-son-violencia-2/)
Yeah, the US had a lot of slavery and it’s been an ever-present spectre of our history, but it’s also made us acutely aware of racism. I’ve now given you 5 different links with 2 of them coming from Black sources saying they feel like the practice is racist. One of the sources even includes the Dutch Prime Minister changing his opinion about Black Pete celebrations noting that it was offensive to others.
Even if it were just black people in the US who say it’s offensive, isn’t that enough? Surely you’re not making the argument that it’s only offensive if it’s done in the US, but totally not racist if done outside of the US?
If you want to continue strawman attacking the character of people in the US, or the US’s past, rather than having meaningful debate that’s on you, but as it stands I’ve pointed out multiple sources that say it’s racist or at least offensive to an racial group.
Look man, even if I provide you with 5 opinion pieces about it that say it’s okay would it change your mind?
Do you think black Pete or Belgium are the only ones with traditions like that?
What’s offensive or not is upon the people to decide and blacks in the US do not speak for the rest of the world.
You know there’s also black people nit offended by some or all of these traditions. What now?
Being especially racist also doesn’t make a country experts on racism. If it were the case the US wouldn’t be as racially divided as it still is. I’d argue it’s way, way worse then most first world countries to be honest.
Sure, if they are meaningfully compelling, but if you just have some guy saying, “It’s my tradition,” it’s hardly compelling. Saying something is tradition is an argument which Americans have seen for a long time as a defense of racist stuff, especially systemic and institutional racism.
Agreed, but that’s also why I included examples of black people from other countries giving their opinions. The Afrofeminas article talks at length about it, I had to have the page translated into English so my quote may not be 100% accurate.
Here is another article (https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/12/18/trans_iberian/1513600440_342120.html)
Here is an article talking about everyday racism faced by black Spaniards (https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/01/11/inenglish/1484151919_267996.html)
I spoke about this earlier, you’re literally making the same argument that racists in the US have been making for over 100 years. Just because some black people don’t think it’s racist doesn’t suddenly make it not offensive.
It’s like if you said that a black person said it was ok to use the N-word so it must not be racist?
I would argue that racism has been a more central subject in the US in the last 100 years, but a quick study will show that discrimination has been a major part of European history. Whether discriminating against Romani persons, Jewish persons, Sub-Saharan African persons, Muslims, and more. Hell, the American colonists literally brought it over from Europe, we learned it from Europe.
There is a whole Wikipedia article talking about the history of racism in Europe and it’s not as old and forgotten as you might think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe).
EDIT: I would also add that we have already established that there is a higher percentage of black people in the US than in Europe. Another article I included cites the opinion of black Europeans that they can’t speak out about racism because they are so little represented. So it’s not that Europe isn’t as racist as the US, but very possible that it just doesn’t get spoken about as much.