Hi,

I am (very, very early) in the process of degoogling. I am definitely not a high risk as far as needing to be completely locked down. It’s more about trying to have a little more control over how my data is used.

I am looking at Graphene OS, but I am a little confused how certain apps (that rely on Google services) work. I have a Pixel 8 and will have it for the foreseeable future.

The apps I currently use that I would still need (or their equivalents) are:

  • Clash Royale (Supercell)
  • Notion (Notion Labs)
  • Clickup (Mango Technologies)
  • Business Calendar 2 (Appgenix)

  1. If I installed these exact apps “sandboxed”, what exactly does that mean from a user standpoint? Will I have to use a separate account, reboot my phone, etc, or is it a quick process to use the app?

  2. Is there a list of apps that I could browse to find equivalents to the above? Recommendations here are also ok.

  3. I saw that Firefox isn’t exactly private(?) and that Vanadium is better in that aspect but I don’t understand why. Can someone ELI5, and help me see if this is a relevant concern for me?

Thank you! 😁

  • MalReynolds@slrpnk.netEnglish
    30·
    8 months ago

    So, the point here is to degoogle, yet you need certain apps that require google services.

    What I and many others do is have a clean (i.e. no google services) main profile and a dirty (has google services) secondary profile. Put your needed apps in the secondary, live in main, and it’s two swipes and a tap to get to your apps in secondary. Best of both worlds. Over time find replacements that work in your main, congratulations, you’re now degoogled on your phone.

    • dracs@programming.devEnglish
      7·
      8 months ago

      I do the two profiles on mine as well. The Google profile isn’t allowed to run in the background so it’s only active when I’m using an app that really needs it. Down to just a single app now that needs it.

    • spaghetti_carbanana@krabb.org
      5·
      8 months ago

      Is there a faster way to switch profile than going into the settings? Sounds like you’ve got a much better way than what I’ve been doing

      • MalReynolds@slrpnk.netEnglish
        5·
        8 months ago

        Swipe into notifications, swipe down on the quick access thingies (bluetooth, aeroplane mode etc), at the bottom is three circular buttons, leftmost brings up select user (swipe, swipe, tap, tap, sorry, missed one.)

          • MalReynolds@slrpnk.netEnglish
            3·
            8 months ago

            Cool!!!

            Must say I hate the lack of a manual / help these days. “It’s intuitive”, no it’s fucking not, you just don’t want to write doco. (Not aimed at GrapheneOS specifically, just the state of things in general)

            • SqueakyBeaver@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
              3·
              8 months ago

              I feel like AOSP, at the very minimum, should have its own “tips and tricks” list (ideally in the form of a built-in app). Ideally every OEM flavor of Android should. I should not have to look it up in order to find these out tbh

      • youmaynotknow@lemmy.ml
        4·
        8 months ago

        In my case I just use an app called “shelter”. Going to the dirty profile is as easy as opening the app drawer and swiping left. I can also “pause” all apps in that profile whenever i want. No tikering necessary.

    • Syn_Attck@lemmy.today
      5·
      8 months ago

      So you don’t even have sandboxed GPlay Services on your main profile?

      I do like how all profiles have all their own data, so if you logout another (not main) profile then that second profile data is encrypted again until you enter the password.

  • Certainly_No_Brit@discuss.tchncs.de
    22·
    8 months ago

    You don’t install the apps “sandboxed”. You can install the Google services like any normal app (in the “Apps” app). The Google services will then only have very limited permissions, for example they won’t be able to see your location, camera, contacts etc. by default and you can grant these permissions like to any other app.

    The only thing that changes is that you have the option to install Google services and that you have the option to grant them permissions they would have limitlessly on a “normal” Android phone.

    Your four mentioned apps should work on GrapheneOS without any problems, the only apps I had difficulties with were banking apps. The Google Play Store won’t be installed by default though, so you will need to install it in the “Apps” app. (I recommend using F-Droid to find alernative apps, although you won’t find something like Clash Royale on there. If you don’t want to use a Google account, you may want to look into Aurora Store (it provides anonymous access to the Play Store), which is also available of F-Droid)

    I personally still use Firefox (Mull to be exact), because Vanadium doesn’t seem to have any good way of blocking ads. I found this on the internet in some R*ddit comment:

    Chromium-based browsers like Vanadium and Bromite provide the strongest sandbox implementation, leagues ahead of the alternatives. It is much harder to escape from the sandbox and it provides much more than acting as a barrier to compromising the rest of the OS.

    (Long version of the above quote: https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing)

    • LWD@lemm.ee
      91·
      8 months ago

      FWIW Cromite should be the recommendation now (Bromite has been long discontinued!), although I too don’t worry too much about the sandboxing benefits and use a FF fork for much/most of my browsing these days.

  • solrize@lemmy.world
    13·
    8 months ago

    Idk what those apps are but if your work requires them, then you should have a separate work phone that runs whatever your boss wants it to, and your own phone that is degoogled. You want the separate phones for other reasons too, like if there is a problem at work and they need the phone, they get theirs and not yours.

    Otherwise, find substitutes for those apps if you have to.

    • mctoasterson@reddthat.com
      71·
      8 months ago

      This. It is worth a few hundred bucks to get a separate “normie” phone and run all your Googled apps on there. It may not even need a sim or a data plan… Just use it on WiFi at home or office. This doesn’t need to be a flagship device… Just something “good enough”.

      Then run all your personal stuff on your other degoogled phone. This is the one with your sim and primary number. Don’t do any work or Google crap on there.

          • scratchandgame@lemmy.mlTiếng Việt
            11·
            8 months ago

            Chromium is inadequate and bad.

            For a anonymous browser, but not for a secure browser. The paper is purely about privacy and anonymity. No security (sandboxing, mitigations) here.

              • scratchandgame@lemmy.mlTiếng Việt
                11·
                8 months ago

                Chromium sandboxing means nothing when it leaks so much data.

                The attacker can’t gain access to the host with javascript.

                A browser that support javascript but doesn’t have sandboxing might not leak these data but when their are bug in their js implementation, the attacker can gain more access to the host.

      • scratchandgame@lemmy.mlTiếng Việt
        11·
        8 months ago

        Then why does the Tor Project choose Firefox over Chromium as its browser base? Chromium is incredibly insecure and full of holes. Post this wishy washy bullshit on reddit, not on Lemmy.

        Because Tor browser’s goal is maximum anonymity and onion service. Firefox might be lag behind in security, but its code and features met the privacy requirements. Tor browser try to achieve some security by using noscript and block some web feature.

  • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
    7·
    8 months ago

    Been usin graphene for a while now i reccommend find as many of your apps on fdroid (i use the neostore frontend for fdroid) then use aurora store for apps on google play. U can install google services from the graphene apps and then u can grant that permissions as u need. I use firfox developer edition cos i need my desktop plugins on mobile. Have had no problems running any apps if ur worried abt google services make a second profile and install it on that profile to further seperate google relient apps.

    • youmaynotknow@lemmy.ml
      3·
      8 months ago

      Mod-trolling here too? Aren’t you going to mod-order us to stop talking about Graphene because it’s detrimental to Android and discriminates Apple, or something like that? 🤣🤣

        • mctoasterson@reddthat.com
          2·
          8 months ago

          Things like cellebrite and pegasus are rapidly evolving tools based on specific zero day vulns that are known only to (and jealously guarded by) the respective tools devs. No one would have any meaningful way of validating whether Graphene is secure against those specific attack vectors or not unless they did test it, but “trust me bro” on the part of a dev doesn’t inspire confidence. I would assume any zero day vuln in AOSP is very likely present in most derivative systems based on it.

        • youmaynotknow@lemmy.ml
          11·
          8 months ago

          I never defend lies. But attacking them would be lying, because I’ve no idea what you mean by “Cellebrite Kits”.

          What I am doing though, is riling yoi up because you’re evidently constantly angry in every single post I’ve seen you write.

          I tried to appeal to logic in one of them (xenophobia, remember?), and all you did was post an even angrier message. So, since logic and good intentions don’t work, trying to increase your anger kay, or may not, do the trick. I just had to give it a shot.

          By the way, no, that didn’t work either. It seems that nothing short of lithium will help. I’m sorry about that man. You sound exactly oike the GrapheneOS guy.

            • youmaynotknow@lemmy.ml
              1·
              8 months ago

              I found the article (ironically in Graphene’s own forum) where they word their explanation in a way that would have us believe their project can counter Cellebrite with little to no effort. And I find that to be deceiving. I don’t know if they can, but from the universal knowledge that the 100% secure system does not exist, I find their claim hard to swallow.

              I have to say, this is good food for thought. And this is where we could try to start a productive debate.

              Within my limited technical knowledge, I have yet to see any mobile OS (ROM or otherwise) that comes close to the level that Graphene allows the user to secure their phones. I am not saying that Graphene is some sort of “fire and forget holy grail” of security, but checking the tracking in the included apps (all 5 of them), and finding absolutely nothing tracking, I have to say, it’s a very nice move from what the common folk uses (or used in my case) in their devices. On top of that, I have full control over 99% of my system (what with storage and contact scopes, plus the ability to disable ALL the apps I want, whenever I want, the control over all of the connections to my preference, and the list goes on and on. I have also tried Calyx (I have nothing bad to say about it, it’s pretty good and intuitive), which I think is an easier entry level than Graphene to incur into the privacy seeking life (my very personal opinion), but Graphene does take all that to different heights.

              You might be wondering why all this long bloglike post. I thought it best to clarify my position towards Graphene as much as possible before i came out with what I’m hoping will spark the productive debate I mentioned before.

              Other than GrapheneOS, what other real, potentially competing, options are out there?

              Because, even with whatever flaws that GrapheneOS may have, it certainly beats having an iPhone, more so any other Android OS/ROM for that matter.

              All previous joking aside, you’re evidently better versed on this subject than most of us, from my perspective anyway.

              What would you recommend, short of getting a dumb phone with a prepaid sim card?

              I’m genuinely curious about what you understand would be a better option.

              “Linux phones” are not a viable option in over 90% of use cases (God O wish that wasn’t the case).

              I’m waiting for the Pixel Fold 2 to launch, to see if I’m going to change my Pixel 7 Pro for that, or if I’m going to wait for the 9 Pro. But since this came up here, I might as well pick other brains and then do some research using the suggestions I find here as a starting point.

                • youmaynotknow@lemmy.ml
                  1·
                  8 months ago

                  That’s a pretty pretty good set of suggestions and explanations, and i appreciate you taking the time to express them.

                  What is this list, that has no equivalent in Android/AOSP in general? Storage scope existed since Android 10, when GSF was introduced separately from native storage access. I have no clue when they claimed to “invent” contact scope, but a different user account (like work profile) segregates everything from storage to network tunnel to contact storage, and user accounts have existed for 10ish years. Disabling all userspace apps is possible on all Android phones as well, just not system apps, for which you need a computer and ADB/Shizuku API access, all of which can be done without rooting or a special “custom ROM”.

                  While the storage scopes ability has been there since Android 10, I have never seen the level of granularity by app that GrapheneOS provides anywhere else, which justifies the mention of it on GrapheneOS. I never said that they invented Contacts scope, and I am not aware if this is their doing or someone else’s. The ability to choose scoped content by app is super convenient, and IMO more straightforward than using different accounts for this purpose. Now, having segregated profiles for the apps that I know I need and have no way of replacing with a “tracker-less” alternative (such as my Aruba InstantOn app) is a God-sent, no doubt. Using ADB is not for the faint of heart, we all know the capacity of damage it has if used carelessly, and punching a hole with Shizuku does expand the vulnerable attack surface, specially since it enables those holes over WiFi.

                  CalyxOS. Even LineageOS is fine. Even not putting one of these things on your phone, and doing things non-rooted (my guide) via ADB/Shizuku on any Android phone in the past 5 years is going to be fine. An exceedingly more important (99% as you say) thing is the user, them forming a proper OPSEC, and not making OPSEC mistakes.

                  If you could share your guide, I’d appreciate it. I am paranoid about using Shizuku or any other type of hole punching method.

                  These AOSP forks are tools, and all of these open source tools are uncompromised, that is a common theme. Tools do not really matter at this point if you use any of them. It is like picking any Linux distro. You are pretty much safe from telemetry and spyware immediately compared to a vanilla Windows installation, the moment you pick a distro.

                  I’m 100% in agreement with you in this comment. Any Linux distro will remove almost all risk of telemetry or spyware when we choose to move away from Windows or Mac, unless you opt-in to some telemetry on a few, like Ubuntu for example, and even then, the difference is night and day.

                  That is impractical if you want to enjoy the benefits of urban society, and function more smoothly in it. You should treat your communicator (smartphone) as a normal device that cannot be made bulletproof, and relegate the utmost private activity to a Linux (or debloated Windows) computer instead, either of which is easier to control than a phone. If you need to have work apps, have them. If you need to have a rental cab app, do not risk your life for that extra bit of privacy, keep it maybe in work profile. If there is a game, it may be fine to enjoy it, unless it requires privacy invasion (no throwaway account possibility).

                  I think your logic for this comment is inherently flawed based on your personal use case and experience. In my very personal case, it is practical, because, while I do want to enjoy some of the benefits of what you call urban society, I am not willing to trade privacy for convenience, much less security. No device is bulletproof, we agree on that, but wee can make it harder for others to invade our privacy, and I believe that, the more of us put in the effort to doing just that, the more likely these privacy nightmare companies are to rethink their business practices, whereas if everyone is just following the path of least resistance, which is the case with the vast majority of the users out there, they have no incentive to even try to change their ways. Practicality will always boil down to how far any 1 individual is willing to go to achieve something without dramatically breaking their way of life. That’s why it’s important to voice all these concerns and provide potential solutions to replace mainstream software (OSs, ROMs, apps, etc.) with alternatives with which we may have more control on what we share. There’s no one-size-fits-all solution, proprietary or open source, it just does not exist, simply because we’re all different to at least one minimum degree, which is what makes this subject as open for debate as it is. I do just that, with GrapheneOS, keep my “trusted” apps in my main profile, and all the crap I don’t trust in a separate profile. But just keeping profiles separate is what I think counts ass following the path of least resistance, when there are so many other options to add to just that 1 action. It is exactly as you say, if I didn’t have my car, I would probably have Lift or Uber on my phone, because I’m a privacy and security freak, but I’m not stupid enough to put myself in danger over that alone. What’s more, I do keep an Uber account that I have, however, I don’t have it in my phone. If I ever need it, I’ll download it, use it, and remove it thee moment I don’t need it anymore. In my personal case, I do most of everything in my PC or laptop, both running Linux (the distro is irrelevant, as we seem to agree on that. But that does not mean that I will be away from my computers, and if I need to do something urgently I have to blast out like a rocket to do it instead of just doing it right there on my phone because I can do it without worrying about spyware or surveillance, or even a potential hack of any kind, because I trust my phone more than if it was using the software the manufacturer wants me to use for their sake, not mine.

                  Understand that your communicator is a pocket computer that is handy in a pinch on the go, not your main computing device. Segregate activity between your phone and computer as needed. If that is too hard with work/job, introduce a second dedicated work phone, for a total of 3 devices.

                  This is unrealistic for most people. I’m inn a privileged position where I can get as many devices as I want without missing a house payment or going hungry, but that’s not the case for everyone. But not having the means to have more devices, for example, does not have to forcibly render you unable to do something about achieving a higher level of privacy and a higher level of security, together with more control over your device and data. This is why these projects exist, they give us options.

                  Also understand your mental health and physical safety is more important than 1% more digital security. If either of those 2 are compromised, your digital privacy or security means nothing. This is the key reason why most “privacy” people get fatigued and say “fuck it” and leave the idea of attaining privacy altogether. Everyone does not need to be a Snowden.

                  This is yet another matter of perspective comment. We agree 100% on the health subject. Nothing should come first. Chasing more privacy and security can be pretty exhausting, I should know. But once I started seeing it ass a hobby that brings with it benefits, as opposed to “something I need to do so I don’t loose as much sleep over who’s racking me”, it’s turned into a game for me, in which I will either win, or loose, and even that will vary as time moves forward. Since I started moving towards a less invasive lifestyle regarding technology, that’s all it is for me, a game. True, it’s a souls-like game, where the enemies will probably kill you a few times before you level up and finally pass them to move on to harder enemies, but a game nonetheless.

                  I want to make this abundantly clear. While I am passionate about privacy and security, the pursue of this is not something that drives my daily life, but something else in which I can achieve more knowledge and potentially help others with along the way. This also provides me with the possibility of having meaningful (and sometimes just silly) conversations form people of all walks of life, cultures, philosophies, etc.

                  Please, if you would, remember to send me your guide, the one you mentioned on your second paragraph. I’d genuinely like to see what your process looks like and compare it to what I currently have.

                  This is the type of conversations I like to have, somewhat different points of view with logical ways to back them up.