On the occasion of the Point Zero Forum's Innovation Tour, we will showcase the privacy-preserving GNU Taler payment system along with its various applicatio...
You ever wonder why GNU Taler for some reason seems to be everywhere? Seems to have like advertising money to be everywhere, unlike basically every other GNU project? Because it’s a backdoor to a central bank digital currency (CBDC) which will be one of the greatest threats to personal liberty and freedom in our lifetime. That’s why you’ll see “Funded by the EU” and a host of banks listed on their funders page. You know, the same EU that wants chat control.
Money you can only spend certain places? A CBDC can do that! Money that expires if you don’t spend it fast enough? A CBDC can do that! Money that can disappear if you decide to be a dissident? A CBDC can do that too! But don’t take my word for it, ask Taler’s FAQ:
Taler e-money is issued with a validity period. One month before the expiration date, you wallet should automatically exchange any digital cash that is about to expire for new digital cash with an extended validity period. However, if your wallet is offline for an extended period of time, it may be unable to do so. Ensure your wallet is regularly online to avoid losing money due to expiration!
We believe the European Electronic Money Directive provides part of the regulatory framework a Taler exchange with coins denominated in Euros would have to follow.
Oh, and it doesn’t work for international transfers either. And it’s going above and beyond to make sure you’re only “private” under certain conditions:
As a payment system must comply with local laws in order to operate legally, GNU Taler must be designed to comply with these requirements. GNU Taler must provide an audit trail for investigators operating under the law. Furthermore, we consider levying of taxes as beneficial to society, and fair taxation requires income transparency. Thus, GNU Taler must enable authorities to track income.
Weird. I didn’t see anything in the Bitcoin source code about that, but apparently Taler thinks it’s their moral responsibility to make sure the authorities have total financial surveillance over their subjects. Taler, in this description, offers less privacy than cash or even a typical bank account. And it gets worse, even small transactions between friends are monitored:
Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
How about, no? How about me paying 50 to a guy for fixing my bike doesn’t need to be intermediaried and KYCed? How about it’s none of the government’s business how I split the bill at dinner with friends? This level of surveillance is madness.
And their FAQ deliberately spreads FUD about Bitcoin. From their FAQ
It would be possible, however, to withdraw coins denominated in Bitcoin into a Taler wallet (with an appropriate exchange), which would give some benefits over plain Bitcoin, such as instant confirmation times.
Wrong. Fud. Bitcoin lightning offers instant confirmation times, fully settled, instant confirmation times. Taler isn’t self-custody. Putting Bitcoin in a taler wallet means trusting Taler and co not to rug you, no thanks. Taler isn’t international, Taler requires KYC to use, it’s worse than cash. Unlike Taler, your Bitcoin can’t be programmed by the government to “expire” if you don’t use your public assistance or wages in time. We all have to do our part to keep the economy going!
GNU Taler seems like the final pleas of a desperate soon-to-be-ex, “I’ll stop, I promise! I’ll do better this time, I’ll even give you some privacy! Just don’t leave!”. But it’s not about the privacy, is it? Really? It’s about the lack of trust, the lack of sovereignty. People have lost trust in governing institutions, they have seen the value of their currency inflated away no matter which party is in charge, they have seen massive privacy violations again and again, they have seen the slow but steady creep of authoritarianism and state control over our lives, they have had to fight EU chat control year after year, and they are opting out of these systems through decentralized, trustless alternatives. The beauty of Taler, of course, from the perspective of the state, is that it enables these system to provide us with “privacy” while still maintaining total state control and centralization. Decentralized identity credentials are the future, not centralized ones. Decentralized currencies are the future, not centralized ones. The future is here, and this is the last gasp of a dying system trying to keep you ensnared in its web of control.
Final overview:
International transactions to anywhere on earth? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Money that doesn’t expire? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Wallet can safely go offline without losing funds due to expiration? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Money you can use even if you are a dissident and the govt wants to shut down your account? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Fully self-custody? You control the money, not anybody else? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
100% FOSS? Anybody can run a node/be a full network participant? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler (must be approved by govt)
Can be used without trusting a centralized entity? ✅Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Will work even if EU government collapses or your country gets kicked out? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
High degree of privacy (when used properly)? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Instant settlement? ✅ Bitcoin ✅ Taler
Known, auditable supply which can’t be manipulated by money printing or a 2-3% “inflation target”? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Able to use without providing ID? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Not part of financial surveillance infrastructure wet dream that EU wants? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
If you would have bothered to see the linked presentation you would know that GNU Taler is explicitly positioning itself as a better international payment standard to prevent central bank digital currencies from taking that role (as commercial banks do not like the idea either).
Its pointless to compare GNU Taler to Bitcoin or other crypto currencies, as it solves a completely different problem space.
Bitcoin solved the “move money from A to B securely, internationally, quickly” problem 15 years ago. Taler strikes me in the most generous terms as a new attempt as an unimaginative effort to re-envision the banking system that existed before that watershed moment. We have instant, international settlement, we have that technology, it’s here, it’s mature, it works, it continues to get better, it has a market cap higher than Sweden’s GDP, and the average long-term trend has been growth no matter what way you slice it. It’s already more widely used and reliable than most national currencies. And it solves the delivery problem.
Taler is explicitly positioning itself as a better international payment standard to prevent central bank digital currencies from taking that role
From the Taler FAQ:
The exchange would be operated by a bank or in cooperation with a bank, and that bank would hold the funds in escrow respectively on an internal settlement account. Note that this bank could be a regular bank or a central bank for a central bank digital currency. Irrespective of this, the bank would fall under the relevant financial services regulations, which is one reason why consumers can rely on the conversion of Taler coins into normal bank money.
That doesn’t sound like opposing a CBDC to me, it sounds like explicitly building infrastructure for its existence. To review, Taler is
Money I don’t control (held by another entity) of a money supply I don’t control (can be printed at will by government)
That can’t be used internationally
That is funded/sponsored by the EU, which wants to push a CBDC
That has built in support for the concept of money expiration
Again please see the above presentation. And yes a central bank could also use Taler, as one of many banks, which would prevent it from being centralised on a single one like in the case of CBDC.
GNU Taler isn’t a currency, its a payment system. And it can be used internationally, you are just completely misunderstanding its purpose and how it functions.
You realize that Bitcoin is traceable, right? You kinda picked the wrong crypto to use as an example. Unless you’re completely in the Bitcoin system and never connect to any outside system or interact with anyone who interacts with an outside system or interact with anyone who interacts with someone who interacts with an outside system or so on (it’s not quite ad infinitum), you are most likely traceable. Tools like Chainalysis have been used by governments for almost a decade.
Your other points aren’t really valid if you ever want to convert Bitcoin to something that isn’t Bitcoin. I’m not aware of complete supply chains and grids that exist solely on Bitcoin (or any combination of crypto for that matter) so things like having control of your money, needing ID, and trusting centralized entities (sure, exchanges plural) are a huge part of Bitcoin.
Your other points aren’t really valid if you ever want to convert Bitcoin to something that isn’t Bitcoin
A. I don’t, I’d rather use Bitcoin for everything. Year after year, for fifteen years, that has gotten easier as the network has continued to grow and exchange rate stability has increased.
B. Then it would equally apply to Monero or any other cryptocurrency
Bitcoin lightning changes Bitcoin’s whole privacy situation. Lightning transactions don’t go on chain and confirm in under a second for pennies in fees.
so things like having control of your money, needing ID, and trusting centralized entities (sure, exchanges plural) are a huge part of Bitcoin.
I believe you mean a huge part of the existing banking system and markets. None of that is Bitcoin, Bitcoin can operate just fine without any of it.
You ever wonder why GNU Taler for some reason seems to be everywhere? Seems to have like advertising money to be everywhere, unlike basically every other GNU project? Because it’s a backdoor to a central bank digital currency (CBDC) which will be one of the greatest threats to personal liberty and freedom in our lifetime. That’s why you’ll see “Funded by the EU” and a host of banks listed on their funders page. You know, the same EU that wants chat control.
Money you can only spend certain places? A CBDC can do that! Money that expires if you don’t spend it fast enough? A CBDC can do that! Money that can disappear if you decide to be a dissident? A CBDC can do that too! But don’t take my word for it, ask Taler’s FAQ:
Oh, and it doesn’t work for international transfers either. And it’s going above and beyond to make sure you’re only “private” under certain conditions:
Weird. I didn’t see anything in the Bitcoin source code about that, but apparently Taler thinks it’s their moral responsibility to make sure the authorities have total financial surveillance over their subjects. Taler, in this description, offers less privacy than cash or even a typical bank account. And it gets worse, even small transactions between friends are monitored:
How about, no? How about me paying 50 to a guy for fixing my bike doesn’t need to be intermediaried and KYCed? How about it’s none of the government’s business how I split the bill at dinner with friends? This level of surveillance is madness.
And their FAQ deliberately spreads FUD about Bitcoin. From their FAQ
Wrong. Fud. Bitcoin lightning offers instant confirmation times, fully settled, instant confirmation times. Taler isn’t self-custody. Putting Bitcoin in a taler wallet means trusting Taler and co not to rug you, no thanks. Taler isn’t international, Taler requires KYC to use, it’s worse than cash. Unlike Taler, your Bitcoin can’t be programmed by the government to “expire” if you don’t use your public assistance or wages in time. We all have to do our part to keep the economy going!
GNU Taler seems like the final pleas of a desperate soon-to-be-ex, “I’ll stop, I promise! I’ll do better this time, I’ll even give you some privacy! Just don’t leave!”. But it’s not about the privacy, is it? Really? It’s about the lack of trust, the lack of sovereignty. People have lost trust in governing institutions, they have seen the value of their currency inflated away no matter which party is in charge, they have seen massive privacy violations again and again, they have seen the slow but steady creep of authoritarianism and state control over our lives, they have had to fight EU chat control year after year, and they are opting out of these systems through decentralized, trustless alternatives. The beauty of Taler, of course, from the perspective of the state, is that it enables these system to provide us with “privacy” while still maintaining total state control and centralization. Decentralized identity credentials are the future, not centralized ones. Decentralized currencies are the future, not centralized ones. The future is here, and this is the last gasp of a dying system trying to keep you ensnared in its web of control.
Final overview:
If you would have bothered to see the linked presentation you would know that GNU Taler is explicitly positioning itself as a better international payment standard to prevent central bank digital currencies from taking that role (as commercial banks do not like the idea either).
Its pointless to compare GNU Taler to Bitcoin or other crypto currencies, as it solves a completely different problem space.
Bitcoin solved the “move money from A to B securely, internationally, quickly” problem 15 years ago. Taler strikes me in the most generous terms as a new attempt as an unimaginative effort to re-envision the banking system that existed before that watershed moment. We have instant, international settlement, we have that technology, it’s here, it’s mature, it works, it continues to get better, it has a market cap higher than Sweden’s GDP, and the average long-term trend has been growth no matter what way you slice it. It’s already more widely used and reliable than most national currencies. And it solves the delivery problem.
From the Taler FAQ:
That doesn’t sound like opposing a CBDC to me, it sounds like explicitly building infrastructure for its existence. To review, Taler is
Again please see the above presentation. And yes a central bank could also use Taler, as one of many banks, which would prevent it from being centralised on a single one like in the case of CBDC.
GNU Taler isn’t a currency, its a payment system. And it can be used internationally, you are just completely misunderstanding its purpose and how it functions.
You realize that Bitcoin is traceable, right? You kinda picked the wrong crypto to use as an example. Unless you’re completely in the Bitcoin system and never connect to any outside system or interact with anyone who interacts with an outside system or interact with anyone who interacts with someone who interacts with an outside system or so on (it’s not quite ad infinitum), you are most likely traceable. Tools like Chainalysis have been used by governments for almost a decade.
Your other points aren’t really valid if you ever want to convert Bitcoin to something that isn’t Bitcoin. I’m not aware of complete supply chains and grids that exist solely on Bitcoin (or any combination of crypto for that matter) so things like having control of your money, needing ID, and trusting centralized entities (sure, exchanges plural) are a huge part of Bitcoin.
A. I don’t, I’d rather use Bitcoin for everything. Year after year, for fifteen years, that has gotten easier as the network has continued to grow and exchange rate stability has increased.
B. Then it would equally apply to Monero or any other cryptocurrency
Bitcoin lightning changes Bitcoin’s whole privacy situation. Lightning transactions don’t go on chain and confirm in under a second for pennies in fees.
I believe you mean a huge part of the existing banking system and markets. None of that is Bitcoin, Bitcoin can operate just fine without any of it.