So just because shitty men exist, we’re supposed to say “welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist”?
I have found pushing back is useless. People are just waiting for you to be a horrible “fragile man” instead of just realizing that being accurate in who you blame for being shitty matters. So yeah I wouldn’t really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
You can just know the shitty generalizers are bigoted, and hope it’s a phase for them. I certainly have never seen any value in either supporting that generalization or fighting against it.
People on the Internet love thinking they’re better than you and that you’re scum. The only way I know to deal with it is just by accepting it
This definitely misses the power imbalance of punching down vs up. If someone genuinely believes all men are “scum,” yeah, that’s prejudiced. However, there is a big difference between a group that has less power in society pushing up against the class that has more power or oppresses them and the reverse. The idea that “y group is (insert pejorative)” and “x group is (insert pejorative)” are equally bigoted statements assumes that x and y groups are equal in social power. Statements like “men are trash” or equivalent don’t necessarily represent an individual’s true opinion of all men, but a general pushing back against a group with more power, many individuals of which attempt to exercise their perceived privilege over women.
Women that say “all men are trash” or similar might not be thinking with this level of introspection and subtlety, but it’s a subconscious reaction to their position as a group with less power. They rarely hold that on a personal level against every individual man, unless they’ve been deeply hurt. I have experienced things that make it harder for me to trust men. My friends have experienced things that make it harder to trust men. I do not think every man is evil. When you see the damage around you on societal levels, see the people calling for your rights to be taken away, see how they treat you like an object or property because of who you are, and you see it in the lives of many many people like you, it creates a resentment of the group that is responsible.
I am not suggesting that there are no women that take advantage of men. I am not suggesting that men cannot be abused. I am not suggesting that it’s okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else. However, I am explaining why women might feel hurt or disempowered enough to push back against men in general, and why “men are trash” and “women are trash” (though far more often, the phrase when targeted at women takes a sexual connotation: whores, etc) are not equivalent statements. Both the women that have been hurt and the men that feel hurt by the byproduct of their resentment are victims of the patriarchy. Until everyone, regardless of gender, holds the same societal power, there will always be people of all groups being hurt by the imbalance.
TLDR: Don’t resent the women who are a product of their environment saying “men are trash,” resent the patriarchy that hurts men and women alike.
Additionally, statements like men are trash can hurt other marginalized groups. I’ve heard “men are trash” be followed or countered with “except trans men.” This is transphobic. I’d like to make it very clear that “men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement, but it is one that is a product of a broken system. See: ACAB.
Ah, the kid brother defence. “But big brother did it, I had the right to!”
Still wrong! Someone else being shitty and prejudiced does not in any way, shape or form excuse your prejudice. I’m sorry you’ve had to face prejudice, but this way you are paying it forward.
I have never said or meant “men are trash.” I don’t know who gave you that idea. I explicitly didn’t excuse the behavior, I stated it was wrong and unjust, yet explained the societal nuance and why it isn’t okay to equate “men are trash” and “women are trash.” I’m paying nothing forward.
I think she “had to” write that much because she knew the thickness of the skull she was trying to penetrate. And your counter-“argument” only proves that point.
P.S. Just because you think something is intuitive to you doesn’t mean it’s correct. It just shows you’re part of the system that needs replacing.
This is reductive. I do not disagree with the fact that generalizing diverse groups is wrong, and I made that fact clear in my comment. You either didn’t read my comment, didn’t understand it, or are maliciously choosing to misrepresent it.
Self righteous to the end. To be expected. This is what I was calling out. I have no wish to argue. Only to push back against lumping people together. It’s unhealthy and you cannot really justify it. Leaning into the idea isn’t helping anyone at all. It is possible to see this with some nuance and not be a piece of shit “all lives matter” person. That was an extremely shitty thing to compare such a small few words to. I argued with that attitude and despised it from the moment I heard of it. “All lives matter” is absolute trash and has absolutely zero relation to this. You simply wanted to belittle me as some kind of repressed piece of shit conservative. Enjoy that.
And if you took the time to read my messages, you’d recognize that I agree that saying “all men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement. What you aren’t realizing is the societal pressures and power imbalances which you’ve conveniently ignored in your argument. You’re taking the same rhetorical role as the “all lives matter” people in response to BLM. I’m not arguing with you. I’m explaining to you. It’s your choice to learn or to stick your head in the sand, and it makes no difference to me.
“Extrapolating things I didn’t say” is called inference, and you can claim something is beside your point but it doesn’t change the fact that your omission commits a logical fallacy. I do not defend shitty behavior, I demonstrate nuance, and yet I constantly see this response online to it. A nuanced position that contrasts your own does not necessarily agree with your opponent, and the ad hominem is just immature.
Committing the same logical fallacy as a “all lives matter” person does not mean I believe you to be the moral equivalent of one, regardless of my disagreement.
Pointing out something objectively shitty as shitty is not in debate. Doing so in omission of other key facts is the problem. Let me provide an example conversation, featuring person A and B, who are both going to be parents soon:
A: “I hope I have a girl!”
B: “I’d support whoever my child is!”
A: “I’d support my child even if they were born very sick!”
Both A and B are using a poor form of argument, which I don’t have a better name for than whataboutism, but is very adjacent to it. By saying “I’d support whoever my child is,” B is implying that A would not. By saying “I’d support them if they were sick,” A does the same. This is the same thing you’re doing when you say:
Dodges the point which was simply that something which is objectively shitty is shitty
You use this same rhetoric throughout your arguments, as do other commenters agreeing with you. I agree that thing is shitty because it was shitty. This is more equivocation. The point is not simply that “thing is shitty because of self evidence,” it’s that by saying this you form a false equivalence and minimize women’s experiences.
If you read nothing else, read this: My argument has nothing to do with whether or not pejorative generalizations are wrong, or to do with defending women who make such arguments. I agree with you on both of these points! My entire argument is that your response of “what if you did this to another group” while omitting the power imbalance that is intrinsic to this issue equates both groups, and therefore dismisses the existence of the power imbalance entirely.
You cannot reply to trans people saying “cis people are trash” with “what if you said that about trans people,” to black people saying “white people are trash” with “what if you said that about black people,” or the above example, or any other similar situation, without also including the nuance that a power imbalance does exist. To do so is to minimize their experience in a defensive position of privilege.
I do not want to be at ideological odds with you. I do not think “men are trash” is an okay thing to say. However, I understand that there is nuance here, and that hurt women are not the target of my ire; the unjust system that hurt them is.
I beg you, read this comment in full. You’ve painted me in your mind as a self righteous egotist, which couldn’t be further from the truth. I won’t continue a back and forth, but I do at least want you to understand that I’m just another person with a set of lived experiences, not a feminist demon from hell here to kick little boys. Men and women are both victims of the patriarchy. Have a good day.
All of this is exactly what I take issue with. You seem to make several assumptions, chiefly that I need a lecture about privilege. I don’t. Just because something can be more easily explained or understood doesn’t make it okay. I have been the target of racial and sexist hatred as a white male. The power imbalance explains it but makes it 0% less shitty. I make no excuses for those people who sought to make me feel awful and I think any defense or letting them off the hook is hurting society. This way of thinking teaches us that shitty misguided attempts at retaliation for mega shitty societal issues are okay as long as they can be understood.
I just read your comments multiple times and all I can come away with is that you think I don’t understand power imbalances which is completely wrong. Make whatever assumptions you want, but preaching something I already get… Is proving my point perfectly. The up and votes in this thread prove it further.
People just cannot seem to grasp that I can say “ya know what that’s shitty and shouldn’t be excused” without piles of other implied baggage which isn’t there. I don’t want or need to defend myself, I wanted to remind someone talking about needing to browbeat themselves for things they didn’t do that it’s really of no value to do that and further, that it’s actually harmful to uphold this unspoken belief that two wrongs make a right.
So just because shitty men exist, we’re supposed to say “welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist”?
Yep.
See the sibling reply from @erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone here for a great explanation about how power dynamics work on this topic, but also:
So yeah I wouldn’t really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
One example? Really? That’s horse shit and you know it. Misogynistic behavior is a rampant, massive problem everywhere; online and in real life.
So just because shitty men exist, we’re supposed to say “welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist”?
I have found pushing back is useless. People are just waiting for you to be a horrible “fragile man” instead of just realizing that being accurate in who you blame for being shitty matters. So yeah I wouldn’t really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
You can just know the shitty generalizers are bigoted, and hope it’s a phase for them. I certainly have never seen any value in either supporting that generalization or fighting against it.
People on the Internet love thinking they’re better than you and that you’re scum. The only way I know to deal with it is just by accepting it
This definitely misses the power imbalance of punching down vs up. If someone genuinely believes all men are “scum,” yeah, that’s prejudiced. However, there is a big difference between a group that has less power in society pushing up against the class that has more power or oppresses them and the reverse. The idea that “y group is (insert pejorative)” and “x group is (insert pejorative)” are equally bigoted statements assumes that x and y groups are equal in social power. Statements like “men are trash” or equivalent don’t necessarily represent an individual’s true opinion of all men, but a general pushing back against a group with more power, many individuals of which attempt to exercise their perceived privilege over women.
Women that say “all men are trash” or similar might not be thinking with this level of introspection and subtlety, but it’s a subconscious reaction to their position as a group with less power. They rarely hold that on a personal level against every individual man, unless they’ve been deeply hurt. I have experienced things that make it harder for me to trust men. My friends have experienced things that make it harder to trust men. I do not think every man is evil. When you see the damage around you on societal levels, see the people calling for your rights to be taken away, see how they treat you like an object or property because of who you are, and you see it in the lives of many many people like you, it creates a resentment of the group that is responsible.
I am not suggesting that there are no women that take advantage of men. I am not suggesting that men cannot be abused. I am not suggesting that it’s okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else. However, I am explaining why women might feel hurt or disempowered enough to push back against men in general, and why “men are trash” and “women are trash” (though far more often, the phrase when targeted at women takes a sexual connotation: whores, etc) are not equivalent statements. Both the women that have been hurt and the men that feel hurt by the byproduct of their resentment are victims of the patriarchy. Until everyone, regardless of gender, holds the same societal power, there will always be people of all groups being hurt by the imbalance.
TLDR: Don’t resent the women who are a product of their environment saying “men are trash,” resent the patriarchy that hurts men and women alike.
Additionally, statements like men are trash can hurt other marginalized groups. I’ve heard “men are trash” be followed or countered with “except trans men.” This is transphobic. I’d like to make it very clear that “men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement, but it is one that is a product of a broken system. See: ACAB.
Thanks for saving me the keystrokes here, I appreciate you (for real, which I’m having to say because text and… you know… how online people are).
<3
Ah, the kid brother defence. “But big brother did it, I had the right to!”
Still wrong! Someone else being shitty and prejudiced does not in any way, shape or form excuse your prejudice. I’m sorry you’ve had to face prejudice, but this way you are paying it forward.
I have never said or meant “men are trash.” I don’t know who gave you that idea. I explicitly didn’t excuse the behavior, I stated it was wrong and unjust, yet explained the societal nuance and why it isn’t okay to equate “men are trash” and “women are trash.” I’m paying nothing forward.
deleted by creator
Show me when I said it was okay. I can show you several times I said the explicit opposite.
Honestly if you have to write paragraphs to defend something that is intuitively ignorant and bigoted to do, you’ve lost the argument by default
I think she “had to” write that much because she knew the thickness of the skull she was trying to penetrate. And your counter-“argument” only proves that point.
P.S. Just because you think something is intuitive to you doesn’t mean it’s correct. It just shows you’re part of the system that needs replacing.
We all know that grouping people together is shitty. I don’t have to make any argument
This is reductive. I do not disagree with the fact that generalizing diverse groups is wrong, and I made that fact clear in my comment. You either didn’t read my comment, didn’t understand it, or are maliciously choosing to misrepresent it.
I didn’t read it. Because it was defending the indefensible.
Again, you can stick your head in the sand. It’s your prerogative. I’m not going to argue with you. You can choose to learn or not, it’s your life.
Self righteous to the end. To be expected. This is what I was calling out. I have no wish to argue. Only to push back against lumping people together. It’s unhealthy and you cannot really justify it. Leaning into the idea isn’t helping anyone at all. It is possible to see this with some nuance and not be a piece of shit “all lives matter” person. That was an extremely shitty thing to compare such a small few words to. I argued with that attitude and despised it from the moment I heard of it. “All lives matter” is absolute trash and has absolutely zero relation to this. You simply wanted to belittle me as some kind of repressed piece of shit conservative. Enjoy that.
This
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/11782965
And if you took the time to read my messages, you’d recognize that I agree that saying “all men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement. What you aren’t realizing is the societal pressures and power imbalances which you’ve conveniently ignored in your argument. You’re taking the same rhetorical role as the “all lives matter” people in response to BLM. I’m not arguing with you. I’m explaining to you. It’s your choice to learn or to stick your head in the sand, and it makes no difference to me.
See I made the mistake of reading this one and it’s emblematic of exactly what I was getting at:
“Extrapolating things I didn’t say” is called inference, and you can claim something is beside your point but it doesn’t change the fact that your omission commits a logical fallacy. I do not defend shitty behavior, I demonstrate nuance, and yet I constantly see this response online to it. A nuanced position that contrasts your own does not necessarily agree with your opponent, and the ad hominem is just immature.
Committing the same logical fallacy as a “all lives matter” person does not mean I believe you to be the moral equivalent of one, regardless of my disagreement.
Pointing out something objectively shitty as shitty is not in debate. Doing so in omission of other key facts is the problem. Let me provide an example conversation, featuring person A and B, who are both going to be parents soon:
A: “I hope I have a girl!”
B: “I’d support whoever my child is!”
A: “I’d support my child even if they were born very sick!”
Both A and B are using a poor form of argument, which I don’t have a better name for than whataboutism, but is very adjacent to it. By saying “I’d support whoever my child is,” B is implying that A would not. By saying “I’d support them if they were sick,” A does the same. This is the same thing you’re doing when you say:
You use this same rhetoric throughout your arguments, as do other commenters agreeing with you. I agree that thing is shitty because it was shitty. This is more equivocation. The point is not simply that “thing is shitty because of self evidence,” it’s that by saying this you form a false equivalence and minimize women’s experiences.
If you read nothing else, read this: My argument has nothing to do with whether or not pejorative generalizations are wrong, or to do with defending women who make such arguments. I agree with you on both of these points! My entire argument is that your response of “what if you did this to another group” while omitting the power imbalance that is intrinsic to this issue equates both groups, and therefore dismisses the existence of the power imbalance entirely.
You cannot reply to trans people saying “cis people are trash” with “what if you said that about trans people,” to black people saying “white people are trash” with “what if you said that about black people,” or the above example, or any other similar situation, without also including the nuance that a power imbalance does exist. To do so is to minimize their experience in a defensive position of privilege.
I do not want to be at ideological odds with you. I do not think “men are trash” is an okay thing to say. However, I understand that there is nuance here, and that hurt women are not the target of my ire; the unjust system that hurt them is.
I beg you, read this comment in full. You’ve painted me in your mind as a self righteous egotist, which couldn’t be further from the truth. I won’t continue a back and forth, but I do at least want you to understand that I’m just another person with a set of lived experiences, not a feminist demon from hell here to kick little boys. Men and women are both victims of the patriarchy. Have a good day.
All of this is exactly what I take issue with. You seem to make several assumptions, chiefly that I need a lecture about privilege. I don’t. Just because something can be more easily explained or understood doesn’t make it okay. I have been the target of racial and sexist hatred as a white male. The power imbalance explains it but makes it 0% less shitty. I make no excuses for those people who sought to make me feel awful and I think any defense or letting them off the hook is hurting society. This way of thinking teaches us that shitty misguided attempts at retaliation for mega shitty societal issues are okay as long as they can be understood.
I just read your comments multiple times and all I can come away with is that you think I don’t understand power imbalances which is completely wrong. Make whatever assumptions you want, but preaching something I already get… Is proving my point perfectly. The up and votes in this thread prove it further.
People just cannot seem to grasp that I can say “ya know what that’s shitty and shouldn’t be excused” without piles of other implied baggage which isn’t there. I don’t want or need to defend myself, I wanted to remind someone talking about needing to browbeat themselves for things they didn’t do that it’s really of no value to do that and further, that it’s actually harmful to uphold this unspoken belief that two wrongs make a right.
Your wrote an equal amount of paragraphs defending your take, albeit smaller ones lol.
Yep.
See the sibling reply from @erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone here for a great explanation about how power dynamics work on this topic, but also:
One example? Really? That’s horse shit and you know it. Misogynistic behavior is a rampant, massive problem everywhere; online and in real life.
Your comment proves my point. Hoping in vain that some day I’ll block all of you
I’d much rather you realize that your position here is rooted in emotion rather than reality than just have you block me.