So I’m in a somewhat unfortunate situation. My circle of friends doesn’t want to switch to another messenger and we are currently stuck on the worst possible platform for security: Telegram.
The problem is that it is very hard to convince anyone to switch, if they are all perfectly fine and like Telegram. I mean I can get why they like it: The UX and UI of Telegram are amazing and there are well functioning clients available for any platform. It has more features and gimmicks than any other messenger I know BUT it lacks one mayor thing: E2EE. And that’s mostly what I care about. The second problem is that I was the person who recommended the switch to Telegram right after WhatsApp was bought by Facebook. I know, that was a bad recommendation, but back then I didn’t know shit about privacy or why E2EE mattered. I was just like “Hey, it’s not by Facebook, so it must be better”. And now everyone I know is there and won’t leave.
If - in the hypothetical situation of me setting an ultimatum and deleting my Telegram after that - I wanted to make them switch somewhere else: What messenger would that be? Currently I’m mostly thinking Signal. I know it’s not perfect either, it is centralized, and the servers are in the US, but it has a bigger user base already than most of its competitors like Threema or Matrix/Element and it is very easy to set up and use. I’m already a user of Signal, Threema, Matrix, WhatsApp and Telegram (every platform for some contacts, but most of them on Telegram sadly), so having yet another option is not a problem for me, as well as getting rid of one is also no problem. I’d love to delete both Telegram and WhatsApp in this move.
So, in conclusion, what I need is a messenger that has all or most of the following:
- best possible security (E2EE is minimum)
- easy to use (no complicated setup, simple UI)
- already has some users (not too niche)
- cross-platform and multi-device (should run on Android, iOS and Windows/Web)
- some flashy dumb features like stickers and so on to keep them entertained
My choice would be Signal. But I am unsure if that is the best choice or if I should just wait a bit and see what all of the new EU laws about messengers and gatekeepers bring to the game and if anything chances with that.
Gotta go with the crowd here. Signal is what you are looking for.
@shortwavesurfer @MarcRnt Sadly, Signal is just another walled garden. We need to make XMPP apps more popular.
Is it?
You can run and connect to your own signal server, separate from the world if you wanted to…
Interoperability with other messengers Vs privacy are separate requirements and use cases.
@ArbiterXero Exactly, if you use any other provider other than the normal Signal server, you’re separate from the rest. You have no other choice to agree on all policy decisions (e.g. requirement for a phone number on registration) or loose all your contacts there. This is separate concern from privacy, but to protect against enshittification and the like, interoperability and compliance with internet standards is absolutely crucial. Let’s not promote the usage walled garden apps.
I personally dont have much experience with XMPP. From what i understand you have to roll your own encryption or everything is plaintext. Matrix encrypts but has major UI/UX issues around key management that make it a PITA to use.
@shortwavesurfer What do you mean by ‘you have to roll your own encryption’? The switcher for encryption looks like this, the default is set to OMEMO which is the XMPP implementation of the Signal encryption protocol.
Isn’t there several options besides OMEMO? If everyone sticks with default that would be alright. If there are other options that could get complicated.
@shortwavesurfer In my experience normal users never touch the defaults. My friends all use OMEMO when messaging me, especially since the OpenPGP option would require you to generate a public and private key yada yada…
Isnt conversations an XMPP client? I feel like i have heard good things about it. My two big gripes with matrix is the key management and i cant auto delete conversations. I make wonderful use of signals “disappearing message” feature.
The only answer for what you are looking is Signal (user base). The next thing would be Whatsapp, so … Signal… Just signal.
First Telegram isn’t the “worst possible option for privacy” and second, as you pointed out, Telegram is largely superior to others when it comes to usability and cross planform support.
Yeah but… Thet are not E2E encrypted by default. That shows how little they care about privacy.
The worst thing about Telegram is the false sensation of security and privacy it gives to unaware people (most of them).
Not just “by default”. It also cannot encrypt group chats and - most importantly - does not allow this on desktop clients.
Yeah but groups are never private, even with encryption.
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I never understood these arguments for Telegram. Sure, it does have more features. It’s not better in terms of usability and cross platform support though. I use Signal desktop everyday. It’s a great experience. Cross platform… The only platform Signal doesn’t support is Web. Which… if there are mobile apps and desktop apps. Web is an insecure redundant need IMO. For the argument that web is good for scenarios where you can’t install desktop apps: I would flip the question to… why would you give a platform you have 0 control, permission to access your secure & private messaging? It just comes down to threat modelling. Telegram is neither secure, nor private. It shouldn’t even be in the same conversation unless talking about FB Messenger, messaging on Instagram or DMing on Twitter/X.
I use Signal desktop everyday. It’s a great experience. Cross platform…
Not it isn’t. It fails do sync messages, its an electron app that is slower than anything else native.
That’s not my experience. I use it on macOS. My messages are always synced. Super fast and runs smooth.
So you’re the 1% of people for for which Signal does work. Nice to know it does to someone.
So smooth it lag whenever you send a message comparing to others. Oh wait you must be comparing to iMessage and the plethora of visual animations Apple has on their messaging App. Telegram works very fast with animations disabled handles group chats with hundreds of people no problem and syncs instantaneously. The state of software development is just amazing, people don’t even notice how slow web apps are because they add aminations on top of it.
Anyways Signal might be CIA funded so… Let’s just say if you’re willing to put up with electron apps you may as well use Matrix.
Speaking about threat modelling, Telegram has one very good thing going on for them: they aren’t dicks with you want to delete messages. You have options that are very clear on what they do and allow you to delete messages in both sides. Other platforms are just shit when it comes to this and frankly that’s a privacy nightmare. What does it serve you do delete a message in your side if the platform doesn’t remove it from everywhere?
Most people I chat with on Signal uses desktop too, I’ve never heard complaints. Most of my contacts use it now. There were hiccups in the earlier months but now it’s smooth and works great.
I use Telegram every now and then. It’s has some nice features. But it’s not secure. The reason the messages “sync” fast there… is because it’s all plain text and on the server. For everyone to read. This is an undisputable fact about Telegram. The nature of the large channels you mentioned requires this insecure mode of storing chat histories, so that everyone can access. Where as with Signal, everything is E2EE. Except a tiny bit of metadata. Telegram everything is unencrypted until you use secret chats. Again. Different threat models. You can’t really compare it to Signal. It’s more akin to FB messenger. Which is not secure. Or private.
Messages being deleted for everyone is a pretty common feature across all the platforms now. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Arguably, chat history being stored plain text is much more a privacy nightmare (it’s literally the reason people want E2EE) than anything else.
The reason the messages “sync” fast there… is because it’s all plain text and on the server.
Yes, I’m aware but it comes down to having something that really sync well 100% of the time, very quickly and without having to constantly dealing with errors such as this https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1350631024351346689 or “signal can’t display this message”.
Messages being deleted for everyone is a pretty common feature across all the platforms now. I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
I’m getting at the fact that most platforms do stupid shit like “this message might not be deleted if the receiver already saw it” like WhatsApp does and/or replacing messages with placeholders saying “this message was deleted”. Telegram can be plain-text and can have a lot of issues but it guarantees that stuff is actually removed without trying to bullshit you like other do.
Eventually Signal might be funded by the US/CIA so who says it is as secure as they advertise it? If we assume that your privacy / security is broken (because it is) I might as well use the platform that provides the best desktop and mobile experience with fast syncs, ability to disable animations, have real desktop apps and not electron shit.
I’m getting at the fact that most platforms do stupid shit like “this message might not be deleted if the receiver already saw it” like WhatsApp does and/or replacing messages with placeholders saying “this message was deleted”. Telegram can be plain-text and can have a lot of issues but it guarantees that stuff is actually removed without trying to bullshit you like other do.
There’s absolutely 0 guarantee that what you’ve “deleted” is deleted. On any platform really. But what you can rely on is the fact that the E2EE is there to make sure things are only readable by whoever the messages were intended for (barring being hacked and compromised keys etc). The message can say whatever it wants, doesn’t mean a lot if you can’t trust the source. Again, we’re just talking about different threat models. With Telegram, it’s not meant for secure and private communication. It has a different audience. And to push Telegram as a private or secure communication, you’re actively doing the public a disservice.
If we assume that your privacy / security is broken (because it is) I might as well use the platform that provides the best desktop and mobile experience with fast syncs, ability to disable animations, have real desktop apps and not electron shit.
If you can’t trust even open source technology that you can review and build yourself. And trust renowned cryptographers reviews of this technology… then why are you in a privacy community telling people their experiences aren’t true to what they’re telling you?
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I really don’t know what you are talking about. I’m using it on Linux and it runs great. Comparing Signal to Discord, as both are electron apps, Discord is pure shit, Signal works really well. It takes a couple seconds to load but it’s still faster than Discord for me.
I would prefer if it would use other cross-platform framework like Flutter or Qt, but you can’t have everything. It’s better to have electron app, than don’t havy any.
I want the answer to be Matrix. I think decentralization and federation are important to the future of internet services to avoid single points of failure, and Matrix seems to take E2EE seriously. So far, I’ve found Matrix to be slow and unreliable, with some of my private conversations having as many messages “unable to decrypt” as successfully delivered.
So the answer isn’t Matrix yet, though I hope it will be in the future. The answer, as most comments have already said is Signal.
For me, answer was XMPP. It does the same thing as Matrix, but is far easier to set up and is far less bloated.
The only answer for what you are looking is Signal. So … Signal… Just signal.
or Molly, of course :)
Easiest seems to me just enabling E2EE in telegram since it’s there. Asking to use secret chats seems easier than asking to switch plattforms
Except that the feature is only available on mobile
FB Messenger and Instagram Messenger would be the worst for privacy… But Telegram is basically just FB Messenger with nicer UX features.
There’s a couple of platforms that have better privacy and security (debatable) features than Signal, but Signal is more widely adopted amongst the E2EE Messengers.
Signal?
SimpleX Chat > Matrix > others
Btw it’s very difficult to change something in the routine, many people have your same issue; where I live WhatsApp is a fucking authority…
Matrix or Signal
Actually, I don’t know why I had forgotten this already.
Link: DEF CON 31 - The Internals of Veilid, a New Decentralized Application Framework - DilDog, Medus4
Veilid. I watched this DEF CON presentation on it. I remember asking myself “How would this differ from Matrix and why do we need a competing standard?”
But actually, after watching, I do realize that in certain ways it seems more elegant and decentralized than even Matrix. It’s really more focused for general application development, but that means chat can be developed on the framework.
So maybe put this on your radar as well while it’s being developed. It certainly has jumped to my attention after watching this video.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
DEF CON 31 - The Internals of Veilid, a New Decentralized Application Framework - DilDog, Medus4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Really interesting! Sadly in the past a lot of such frameworks went the way of the titanic :/
Signal is good but you can look into simplex chat or session
Not ready for primetime. Like, absolutely not.
I think the only choice is Signal for practical purposes. There is no creating accounts, no scanning ID’s, no invite link to chat. If they already know your number, there’s nothing they need for you to contct you on Signal.
For people who I have their number, I will never ever acknowledge any other option than Signal because confused people don’t end up making any choice. Only if they talk about servers and networks, then I will teach them network security. I say SimpleX F-Droid is king of them all, but for random people, I only mention Signal/Molly.
For the record, I will say that I am more willing to currently use Whatsapp than ever use Telegram. I can’t speak to the cool features with Telegram because I hate it too much to register my number with them.
I don’t understand how you trust facebook more than telegram. It’s the exact opposite for me
Watch this whole video https://yewtu.be/watch?v=rtRQKQkvUfE
Already know those points. facebook is not better.
DMA will only affect Whatsapp and Facebook Messenger from messengers, Apple’s iMessage manage to be excuded as they don’t have 45 million active users (10% of EU population).
Edit: I said Google Messenger when I meant Facebook.
Signal fits all of your criteria.
- Has E2EE by default
- Has most generic UI possbile that just works
- Has a bunch of users
- Has clients for Android, iOS, Windows, macOS, Linux
- Has flashy features like stickers and stories
- Run by a non profit foundation instead of a single developer or for profit corporation
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Telegram has started it’s Enshittification phase now. They put stuff in the user interface to try and push you to pay for it.
And they have some weird crypto scams running in the background as well.
I don’t think WhatsApp is a good option. Their clients are not Open Source, so it’s unknown if they really implement all the privacy features of the Signal client. Also, Facebook and WhatsApp are known to collect every single bit of Metadata they can get, it’s really bad. I wouldn’t touch it again, under any circumstances. I’m glad that nobody I know uses it, at least inside my circle of friends. Some still use it for outside connections or family members.
Telegram clients also technically have source available, even if late.
I know, but their server doesn’t. And since everyone uses it without the secret chats feature, they could read every message we exchange.
