I’d quibble that the average medieval peasant faced a lot less surveillance than the average citizen of any country today (Though perhaps that’s just a change in methods).
But you are right - and, in fact, I think it’s the case that countries/people in worse circumstances tend to have more kids (probably some weird evolutionary thing but I don’t want to speculate). As tough as times may seem in “developed” countries, most people don’t need to worry about where their next meal is coming from.
(This isn’t to say that circumstances are “fine” or that we shouldn’t improve things - simply pointing out some biological factors). It’s also worth noting that folks in worse economic circumstances tend to having a higher number of people in their “support network” (friends and family - ie, 3 generations living under one roof). Though perhaps this is not the case in the US since it’s culturally looked down upon to rely on family like that.
It’s an interesting phenomenon that can’t be boiled down to 1 or 2 simple factors like government type. Maybe this was too much text and I should’ve just said “I agree with you DeathByBigSad”
having a higher number of people in their “support network” (friends and family - ie, 3 generations living under one roof).
Fun fact: My mom told me that, supposedly, if it weren’t for the fact that my maternal grandmother (aka: her mother) agree to help take care of me, she would’ve never given birth to me, as she already has the trouble of dealing with my older brother. My parents were kinda busy with work.
(I’m from China btw… Currently residing in the US)
I also remember sometimes my older brother was just tasked with the “chore” of having to pick me up. I remember once my mom’s close friend picked me up from school at the same time as she picked up her kid, I kinda just spent like an hour at their house being bored… not much entertainment… smartphones didn’t exist at the time (not that I would’ve been allowed to have one anyways, I was like maybe 10 or something).
And as for finacial support. My mom borrowed a lot of money from relatives and friends… so yeah… that how she managed to buy a house (she eventually paid them back).
The truth is that the strength of a democracy has little relation to the birth rate. If you live in the US, for example, you only live in a democracy if your income is in the top 10%. This has actually been studied. The opinions of the poorest 90% of the population have absolutely zero bearing on what government policy is implemented.
The US and China actually have similar levels of democracy. China forms all its policies from the CCP, an organization of about 100 million people. The share of the population in China that has any impact on policy is actually quite similar to the share that does the same in the US.
It’s true. The very poor people I’ve known in the US have believed that “the system is rigged” and they have little freedom and no voice. They believe they are exploited by powers far beyond their ability to challenge and the last way any of it would ever change is through voting, which they see as an empty, farcical gesture.
While you are correct, taking a piss poor example of democracy against another piss poor example of democracy doesn’t really explain anything. I said authoritarian regime, I stand by that.
I think you’re imagining that statistics, because they do not. But hey, let’s check. Name three European countries that have population replacement birth levels.
You seem to struggle with the simple concept. So badly in fact, that I suspect this is all disingenuous bullshit from a bad faith ideologue.
In the slight chance this is just a high level of ignorance, naievety or low IQ, here is my polite response.
Oppressed people won’t tell anyone anything that can be used against them, western or not. Pew Research isn’t going to protect them. The Ash institute won’t un-disapear anyone. The people speaking to western, even academic sources still have to live under oppression when the survey is done.
Speaking to foreign journalist is a great way to get your family threatened.
Quoting RSF, the western politicized organization that refused to comment on the illegal arbitrary detention of a Spanish journalist in Poland. The organization classifying England’s “Press Freedom Index” as satisfactory while all sorts of reporters bring up the massive repression against anti-zionism in all media. Surely that Montpellier-based organization with branches exclusively in western countries could not be used as a political tool!
You have literally never spoken to a Chinese person living in China, and it shows.
Oppressed people won’t tell anyone anything that can be used against them, western or not
Look. I understand you’ve been exposed to decades of anti-China propaganda, but this is fucking wild. In my university department I’ve been fortunate enough to direct the master’s and bachelor’s theses of some 10 Chinese students. I’ve discussed politics with most of them, between 2020 and 2024 for a frame of reference. We’re talking highly trained young men and women from a variety of backgrounds and provinces. None of them has had any problem talking to me about politics, other than “I’m not really interested” for some of them. Out of those students, only one chose to pursue a career in Germany (highly developed, rich country in Europe), the rest moved back to “authoritarian, evil, oppressive” China.
The one who chose to stay in Germany told me that he came to Europe considering himself an opposition supporter against the government of China, but that when he saw the politics in Europe, he started to be a lot more charitative towards the Chinese government and he’s not so clear about his position anymore. Another student told me she couldn’t understand how the German government did nothing while hundreds of thousands of citizens were needlessly dying of COVID because it didn’t want to infringe too much on “the economy”.
Tell me now: how many actually Chinese people living in China have you spoken with?
Ehh, the character of the regime doesn’t seem to affect birth rates a whole lot. Brutal dictatorships that make China seem like a gentle puppy could have perfectly ok birth rates. E.g. Nazi Germany had 2.5 fertility rate in 1939 and 1940, it was their highest since 1922: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
I really don’t think the average Chinese cares too much about how authoritarian their govt is when it comes to deciding on whether to have kids. The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.
The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by an authoritarian regime, so in the exhale you disagree with me, while on the inhale you argue my point. ;)
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by all regimes in general, aside from the one-child policy which might be regarded as an authoritiarian policy. Shit economy making people not want kids works the same both in democracies and in authoritarian countries (in fact, the latter might even dampen the negative psychological effects upon the population through propaganda).
As someone currently in China, I’d rather have a kid here than in the US.
There’s a lot more random shit explicitly for children around, like malls will have basketball courts, arcades, playgrounds, and other things that definitely doesn’t generate as much, if any revenue, so kids aren’t just expected to silently follow their parents around or be on the phone for hours at a time. As a consequence, you see fewer outbursts of children in public. They still have a long way to go regarding mental health in other ways. A mother I talked to was confused that anyone could think it’s possible to teach children to listen without hitting them.
As far as education goes, I see more small, private schools than the US, which worries me as it implies the public schools in the area aren’t as good. It’s notoriously stressful for the children, but then so is living with a real danger of getting shot at school.
thanks for your actually sensible and cogent input.
it’s hard for me to understand how private schools can exist in China. i have a difficult time understanding how they balance / navigate between socialism and capitalism.
i would never raise my children in the US. the US has too many problems. we’re quite happy in the EU. as you say, lots of children and family friendly public spaces around, and even as a part of private places they set aside spots for kids without cost.
Desperation?
People don’t want to have kids. I wonder why. Remember the laying flat movement and the 996 culture.
I wonder why.
If only there was an actual solution to this LOLOL…
If I lived under an authoritarian regime, I would not want to bring a child into it.
I mean… isn’t that just most of history tbh?
Most people aren’t antinatalists lol
I’d quibble that the average medieval peasant faced a lot less surveillance than the average citizen of any country today (Though perhaps that’s just a change in methods).
But you are right - and, in fact, I think it’s the case that countries/people in worse circumstances tend to have more kids (probably some weird evolutionary thing but I don’t want to speculate). As tough as times may seem in “developed” countries, most people don’t need to worry about where their next meal is coming from.
(This isn’t to say that circumstances are “fine” or that we shouldn’t improve things - simply pointing out some biological factors). It’s also worth noting that folks in worse economic circumstances tend to having a higher number of people in their “support network” (friends and family - ie, 3 generations living under one roof). Though perhaps this is not the case in the US since it’s culturally looked down upon to rely on family like that.
It’s an interesting phenomenon that can’t be boiled down to 1 or 2 simple factors like government type. Maybe this was too much text and I should’ve just said “I agree with you DeathByBigSad”
Fun fact: My mom told me that, supposedly, if it weren’t for the fact that my maternal grandmother (aka: her mother) agree to help take care of me, she would’ve never given birth to me, as she already has the trouble of dealing with my older brother. My parents were kinda busy with work.
(I’m from China btw… Currently residing in the US)
I also remember sometimes my older brother was just tasked with the “chore” of having to pick me up. I remember once my mom’s close friend picked me up from school at the same time as she picked up her kid, I kinda just spent like an hour at their house being bored… not much entertainment… smartphones didn’t exist at the time (not that I would’ve been allowed to have one anyways, I was like maybe 10 or something).
And as for finacial support. My mom borrowed a lot of money from relatives and friends… so yeah… that how she managed to buy a house (she eventually paid them back).
I live in a democracy and don’t want to bring children into this.
The truth is that the strength of a democracy has little relation to the birth rate. If you live in the US, for example, you only live in a democracy if your income is in the top 10%. This has actually been studied. The opinions of the poorest 90% of the population have absolutely zero bearing on what government policy is implemented.
The US and China actually have similar levels of democracy. China forms all its policies from the CCP, an organization of about 100 million people. The share of the population in China that has any impact on policy is actually quite similar to the share that does the same in the US.
It’s true. The very poor people I’ve known in the US have believed that “the system is rigged” and they have little freedom and no voice. They believe they are exploited by powers far beyond their ability to challenge and the last way any of it would ever change is through voting, which they see as an empty, farcical gesture.
While you are correct, taking a piss poor example of democracy against another piss poor example of democracy doesn’t really explain anything. I said authoritarian regime, I stand by that.
What democracy currently have population replacement birth levels?
All the ones in Europe (if you count them as democratic obviously)
I think you’re imagining that statistics, because they do not. But hey, let’s check. Name three European countries that have population replacement birth levels.
I never said democracy equals replacement level birthrate.
No, but your comment implies it would be higher, even if that wasn’t your intention.
Do you want to discuss things with the public, or do you want to debate the voices in your head and the things they told you I said.
I agree, but how is that relevant to China? It pretty consistently has the highest government satisfaction rates in the world.
Edit: and before you accuse me of Chinese propaganda, that’s data from western organizations like Pew Research or Ash Institute
Because they jail/disappear anyone who complains? Lol.
Edit: Without entrenched freedom of speech, surveys mean nothing but what respondants think their opressors want to hear.
Damn. Americans jail even more people and still have a lower satisfaction…
Dumb take. The data portraying that comes from western institutions like Pew Research or the Ash Institute
You seem to struggle with the simple concept. So badly in fact, that I suspect this is all disingenuous bullshit from a bad faith ideologue.
In the slight chance this is just a high level of ignorance, naievety or low IQ, here is my polite response.
Oppressed people won’t tell anyone anything that can be used against them, western or not. Pew Research isn’t going to protect them. The Ash institute won’t un-disapear anyone. The people speaking to western, even academic sources still have to live under oppression when the survey is done.
Speaking to foreign journalist is a great way to get your family threatened.
https://rsf.org/en/chinese-regime-s-fierce-repression-journalists-hidden-behind-day-celebration
Edit: Never mind. For bad faith arguments I hereby award you a personal block.
Quoting RSF, the western politicized organization that refused to comment on the illegal arbitrary detention of a Spanish journalist in Poland. The organization classifying England’s “Press Freedom Index” as satisfactory while all sorts of reporters bring up the massive repression against anti-zionism in all media. Surely that Montpellier-based organization with branches exclusively in western countries could not be used as a political tool!
You have literally never spoken to a Chinese person living in China, and it shows.
Look. I understand you’ve been exposed to decades of anti-China propaganda, but this is fucking wild. In my university department I’ve been fortunate enough to direct the master’s and bachelor’s theses of some 10 Chinese students. I’ve discussed politics with most of them, between 2020 and 2024 for a frame of reference. We’re talking highly trained young men and women from a variety of backgrounds and provinces. None of them has had any problem talking to me about politics, other than “I’m not really interested” for some of them. Out of those students, only one chose to pursue a career in Germany (highly developed, rich country in Europe), the rest moved back to “authoritarian, evil, oppressive” China.
The one who chose to stay in Germany told me that he came to Europe considering himself an opposition supporter against the government of China, but that when he saw the politics in Europe, he started to be a lot more charitative towards the Chinese government and he’s not so clear about his position anymore. Another student told me she couldn’t understand how the German government did nothing while hundreds of thousands of citizens were needlessly dying of COVID because it didn’t want to infringe too much on “the economy”.
Tell me now: how many actually Chinese people living in China have you spoken with?
Ehh, the character of the regime doesn’t seem to affect birth rates a whole lot. Brutal dictatorships that make China seem like a gentle puppy could have perfectly ok birth rates. E.g. Nazi Germany had 2.5 fertility rate in 1939 and 1940, it was their highest since 1922: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
I really don’t think the average Chinese cares too much about how authoritarian their govt is when it comes to deciding on whether to have kids. The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by an authoritarian regime, so in the exhale you disagree with me, while on the inhale you argue my point. ;)
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by all regimes in general, aside from the one-child policy which might be regarded as an authoritiarian policy. Shit economy making people not want kids works the same both in democracies and in authoritarian countries (in fact, the latter might even dampen the negative psychological effects upon the population through propaganda).
[The shitpost formerly here is a good reminder to not Lemmy when too drunk. Know your limits]
It must be fun when you just make up what the other person said and call them names over that. You homophobe.
[The shitpost formerly here is a good reminder to not Lemmy when too drunk. Know your limits]
Defending america is hot. Wanna date?
Imperialist shill.
“Oh I hope my children grow up in an authoritarian dumpster fire. Rights are scary and I can’t be trusted with them.”
Or maybe somewhere where you don’t have to spend half of your salary paying rent? Like China.
I laughed pretty hard reading this when Hong Kong’s subdivided flats (cage appartments) came to mind.
You bring up an interesting topic. China has both housing affordability issues, and entire ghost cities at the same time.
China’s command economy can accomplish amazing feats in little time, at the cost of efficiency and utility.
Children in China have better lives than those in the US.
And you’re mad about it.
personable as always, .ml
As someone currently in China, I’d rather have a kid here than in the US.
There’s a lot more random shit explicitly for children around, like malls will have basketball courts, arcades, playgrounds, and other things that definitely doesn’t generate as much, if any revenue, so kids aren’t just expected to silently follow their parents around or be on the phone for hours at a time. As a consequence, you see fewer outbursts of children in public. They still have a long way to go regarding mental health in other ways. A mother I talked to was confused that anyone could think it’s possible to teach children to listen without hitting them.
As far as education goes, I see more small, private schools than the US, which worries me as it implies the public schools in the area aren’t as good. It’s notoriously stressful for the children, but then so is living with a real danger of getting shot at school.
thanks for your actually sensible and cogent input.
it’s hard for me to understand how private schools can exist in China. i have a difficult time understanding how they balance / navigate between socialism and capitalism.
i would never raise my children in the US. the US has too many problems. we’re quite happy in the EU. as you say, lots of children and family friendly public spaces around, and even as a part of private places they set aside spots for kids without cost.
HCOL, many graduates are having impossible time of finding jobs, plus china trying to lure graduates/phd from the states has incensed them as well.
Good thing they made actual unions illegal in the Workers’ Paradise ™️.
Whenever I see that, I love to remind people, than Tienanmen Protesta were (partly) against China pivot from communism to capitalism - this article summarizes it nicely: https://jacobin.com/2019/06/tiananmen-square-worker-organization-socialist-democracy