Due to the severity of the situation and the fast flowing news cycle, we have decided to create a general megathread for discussion regarding the conflict.

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  • blterrible@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    “European settlers” in the sense that they hadn’t been in Israel since the Romans kicked them out in '65 for causing too much trouble with all their messiahs and religious zealotry.

    • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      2000 years!

      They hadn’t ever been in Israel, they were born and raised in Europe by parents that were born and raised in Europe by grandparents that were born and raise in Europe etc. etc. They were Europeans, complete with white skin and European culture and European language.

      This wasn’t refugees returning to their home. It was settlers invading nonwhite people’s land and stealing it for themselves.

      • redcalcium@lemmy.institute
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, if we stretch this logic even further down, we all get to claim our ancestral land in Africa from 200 millennia ago.

        • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          The Netherlands had better watch out… my ancestors came from there about 300 years ago, and that automatically gives me the right to rape, torture and murder my way through Antwerp!

          • dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            Every Russian in Lithuania better pack their bags. I’m tearing up my Pennsylvania birth certificate and returning home! I can’t wait to open the first Primanti Bro’s in Vilnius.

        • rchive@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Yes, all ancestral land claims are ultimately at least a little bit silly.

      • blterrible@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Yes, the vague equivalent would be for the Native Americans to reclaim the United States via superior force ~1800 years from now.

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Not even Native Americans!

          It would be the equivalent of people with extremely diluted ancestry and no connection to any tribe, white people who practice a Native religion and speak an extremely deformed English dialect of some Native language but are otherwise just US Americans.

      • Hyperreality@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        A third of Israelis are (family of) refugees/emigrants from the middle-east or north Africa.

        It’s not a ‘white european’ country, which you’d know just looking at them.

        Imposing simplistic American notions of race on a complicated conflict is stupid and embarrassing.

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Yeah, now. That’s because they imported Jews from everywhere they could to become Israeli. It started as a European settler project.

          But if you look at the positions of power, the government and businesses and celebrities, you’ll see mostly white faces. Israel definitely has a white supremacist bent to it - you don’t think an Ethiopian Jew will ever be the prime minister do you?

          America’s white majority is going to disappear too, but you don’t think that will actually end American white supremacy right?

            • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              You still see white faces in high places. That’s why Europe and America are Israel’s greatest supporters - they want an ethnosate in the middle east.

              That’s why you aren’t going to ever see an Ethiopian Prime Minister. Now you’re right, race isn’t exactly like it is in the US. It actually reminds me more of colorismo in Latin America, where racial prejudice is based more on how dark your skin is than being clear cut along racial lines. Light skinned Asians get to have this privilege in the racial majority.

              But there is a racial component to Israel’s apartheid regime and its unlimited support from Europe and America, and you have to acknowledge this.

            • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              I’ll be honest. Most Americans don’t even realize Roma are a real group of people. They hear gypsy and think crystal balls and magic. The population is much smaller and more integrated in the US than in Europe so many have never met someone from that group. But I mean if you want the honest answer, a person that looks white in America is considered white until a reason is given otherwise. Maybe a name. Maybe a symbol. Maybe they say something. My youngest son can pass for white easily. Asheknazi jews are white by current american standards, but I don’t see white southern baptists churches needing armed security during service. And I’m one generation shy of when Jews weren’t allowed in to certain places.

              Race is weird in America. And Americans are very touchy about it on both sides. I think it’s because it’s built on a house of cards, but so many fundamental things revolve around it. Racial justice on the left. Umm… other things on the right. Like racism is definitely real. I can make it through police checkpoints without getting stopped, while my wife gets stopped every time. But Americans like to pretend there is some true hard standard when it is all a wobbly social construct.

            • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              If they were given their own settler colony and started being treated as an equal by all the other white countries? Yes.

              I wouldn’t consider a European Jew before the formation of Israel to be white, but they’re sure as fuck white now.

              • Hyperreality@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                If someone of white European heritage burns down a synagogue frequented by what you consider people of white European heritage, would you still consider that racist given they’re the same race? Or would you consider that less racist than someone burning down a church frequented by black people?

                • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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                  1 year ago

                  The Jews exist in a superposition of races until you burn down the synagogue and collapse the waveform.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                  1 year ago

                  It is almost like Jewish people have a conditional relationship with whiteness. The idf soldiers bombing children’s hospitals certainly are capital W White.

                • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  If someone of white European heritage burns down a synagogue frequented by what you consider people of white European heritage, would you still consider that racist given they’re the same race?

                  Individual people can be racist in all sorts of kooky ways, like there’s certainty individuals racist against white Irish people and against white people from Mediterranean countries. So, yeah, it’s possible for a kooky individual to be racist against Jewish white people.

                  But that’s not reflective of society, of systems of social or political power, or of the current cultural epoch. That’s just a freak.

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          racism, forced displacement and oppression

          HMM WHY DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?!

          capped off with one of the most horrific genocides in the history of the world.

          History repeats, I guess.

          Keep screeching for nuance while Israel bombs evacuation routes and refugee camps with the full throated support of Europe and America.

          • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            While I won’t argue in support of the amount of force Israel is using, I am curious what you believe they should do. For this current situation and the whole situation at large.

            • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Return the land they stole and reform the single Palestinian state so they can peacefully coexist within Palestine.

        • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          2000 years of racism, forced displacement and oppression, capped off with one of the most horrific genocides in the history of the world.

          And who is responsible for that, eh? The same “western civilization” that is now using Israel as a kapo state to do it’s dirty work in the middle-east, perhaps?

        • dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
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          1 year ago

          It’s almost like you just want to believe Jewish people are bad guys to fit a simpler narrative of what’s happening.

          Its almost like you want to collapse all Jews and the settler colonial state of Israel into one group to fit a simpler narrative of what’s happening.

            • dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
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              1 year ago

              So all of Israel is a colonial state? Yes.

              What should happen with it and it’s over 9 million people? You return proper land ownership and a lot of people will move back to where they’re from when they no longer get preferential treatment and free stuff. It happened in South Africa. If you don’t live on land that was stolen from Palestinians but within Palestinian borders, you live in Palestine now.

    • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

      Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

      -- Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture

      Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I.

      This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation… Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine… Make us victorious over the community of infidels… Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies… Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them.

      --Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council

      By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews…

      -- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader

      The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious… NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS.

      Let everyone know that Hamas… is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner… it realizes the Jews’ methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people…

      We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad’s defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia].

      --Hamas communiqué

      • porcupine@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Individual people having backwards views stemming from generations of impoverishment doesn’t justify imprisoning and exterminating an entire indigenous population. That population has an unconditional right to resist their colonization using whatever means are available to them.

        I’m stating a moral position here, not trying to argue with you, because you don’t actually care about some unique technical specifics in this one situation. You’d be saying the same thing about “this civil rights leader said all white people or bad”, or “that escaped slave hurt that poor white family”, or “those Indian savages beheaded 100 settler babies” as though any of that justified the generations of colonial extraction that you benefit from. Whatever helps you sleep at night.