- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
More than 200 Substack authors asked the platform to explain why it’s “platforming and monetizing Nazis,” and now they have an answer straight from co-founder Hamish McKenzie:
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse.
While McKenzie offers no evidence to back these ideas, this tracks with the company’s previous stance on taking a hands-off approach to moderation. In April, Substack CEO Chris Best appeared on the Decoder podcast and refused to answer moderation questions. “We’re not going to get into specific ‘would you or won’t you’ content moderation questions” over the issue of overt racism being published on the platform, Best said. McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.”
You must log in or register to comment.
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either
Actions speak louder than words. Fuck Substack and fuck any platform that offers a safe haven for nazis.
“I want you to know that I don’t like nazis. But I am fine platforming them and profiting from them. Now here is some bullshit about silencing ‘ideas.’”
“I don’t like Nazis… but you have to understand, they’re very profitable.”
If there are 10 nazis at a table and you decide to sit among them, there are 11 nazis sitting at that table.
So you think Deeyah Khan is a Nazi?
(I’d encourage anyone to watch White Right: Meeting the Enemy if you haven’t seen it.)
Removed by mod
Out of curiosity, let’s say a man needs a place for sleep, and for get one, he decides to help out a nazi, for example by fixing their long distance radio, would you call this person a nazi,@xkforce@lemmy.world ?
Why couldn’t the man go to a homeless shelter, or a church, or a bus stop, or a park bench, or literally anywhere other than a Nazi’s house? Also, what does a Nazi need a long distance radio for? Maybe by fixing it and not asking questions he’s helping them coordinate with other fascists to hurt and kill people. Is that worth a place to sleep for a night? Is it worth a few bucks if you’re not homeless but actually a wealthy business owner who can do as they please?
A lot of people died rather than help them so yes I would judge the shit out of someone that helps a nazi knowing full well what they are.
Nazis don’t deserve help. They fundamentally are antisocial in their ideology. By helping them, you aid a Nazi. Why would you willingly help a Nazi?
Who the fuck feels safe sleeping among Nazis? That’s a good way to get robbed.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Hearing some one out and not changing your viewpoint after the conversation, doesn’t make you one of them. 🙄
Thing is, we’ve heard out the nazis before. We don’t need to do that anymore.
Exactly. It’s the paradox of tolerance.
I like Michael Okuda’s take on this:
The Paradox of Tolerance disappears if you look at tolerance, NOT as a moral standard, but as a social contract. If someone does not abide by the terms of the contract, they are not covered by it. In other words, the intolerant aren’t deserving of your tolerance.
Personally, I think there’s some value in allowing the Nazis to publicly self-identify, because then we know who the Nazis are. We (society) don’t need to tolerate what they say just to prove that we’re tolerant, but it’s probably useful to know who they are, and for them to volunteer that information. Then we respond with public ridicule and name-and-shame.
Also, that doesn’t require that a privately owned business (e.g. substack) should provide a platform for Nazi bullshit.
Michael Okuda is one of the great contributors to design thanks to the influences of Star Trek: The Next Generation and later shows- he was behind a lot of the look- and almost no one knows who he is. It’s a real shame since, as you showed here, he’s smart in other ways too.
There are some things not worth listening to. Not all opinions are created equal.
Nazi lives don’t matter.
Zero tolerance for nazis. Zero.
Agreed. However, providing a platform for hate speech is no different than condoning it.
But hearing them out and deciding to allow them to promote their views on your website is passive endorsement.
Or, to follow the metaphor: if you hear them out over entrees and you’re still sitting there during dessert, then you’re probably one of them.
When it comes to listening to hate speech and not condoning it outrright then and there, even if you don’t explicitly support it, it does make you complicit, and it shows you’re willing to turn a blind eye to it, and that speaks negatively to your character.
Don’t be a Nazi sympathizer, don’t let them off the hook, don’t let them spread their hate and lies. You disagree with Nazism? Then don’t give it even an inch to spread. Kill it in the cradle.
Big difference between having a conversation and having a media company distributing propaganda.
deleted by creator
Do not tolerate the intolerant.
Toleration is a social contract. Those that break the contract should not be allowed to seek protection under it.
This is such a wonderfully ironic statement. It is through toleration that they are painted in a poor light.
Tolerance is a social contract not a right. If you are tolerant, you earn tolerance for yourself. If you are intolerant, you don’t deserve tolerance yourself. It’s really not that complicated imo. I don’t feel the need to be tolerant of racist, bigoted people.
Tolerance is a social contract not a right. If you are tolerant, you earn tolerance for yourself. If you are intolerant, you don’t deserve tolerance yourself.
I’ve never heard it said that way. This is a fantastic way to put it.
You dont. You just have to be tolerant of their existence because theirr existance is protected by right and law. If you punch a Nazi your still getting charged with assault and battery. If you kill a racist your still going to jail. We dont illegalize views and ideas in america.
No you don’t have to tolerate their existence.
We fought a war against Nazis for a fucking reason.
Their ideals are shut and anyone who pushes them is worth less than the air they breath and the dirt they shit in.
The first amendment says you do in fact have to tolerate them sir. You may not commit acts of violence against them for their speech or you get put in prison. Thats the way it is.
The first amendment applies to the government’s actions. Not personal actions.
Hate speech is not a protected class so you can be refused service for it at any business,
This is ideal, but falls on a simple premise - everyone believes the other party is intolerant and that they are proudly righeous in behaving like a judge, jury and executioner.
Open and free critique means manipulation and grooming happens far less effectively, which neuters anything from its core. Society is the judge, but it must also be the metric it is measured against.
deleted by creator
Funny, I thought they hated gays too /j
I feel like you’re just being contrarian for its own sake.
The first paragraph is just plain false. Everyone believes others to be intolerant? No, the parent comment just said you be intolerant to the people who prove themselves to be intolerant? “Judge, Jury, Executioner”? Word salad. And people should judge others - we already do that, thats how we know if we can trust someone and expend the energy spend guarding against them in more useful tasks. The second paragraph is just a whole lot of words that say nothing.
Also, I’m just following your advice:
Open and free critique means manipulation and grooming happens far less effectively, which neuters anything from its core.
Be better.
paradox of tolerance
deleted by creator
paradox of tolerance
From the article…
“I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”
there is nothing worthwhile lost silencing nazi bullshit from social media
there is nothing worthwhile lost silencing nazi bullshit from social media
"… as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”
If you don’t win the argument, the argument goes on forever.
lol imagine trying to ‘win’ an argument with an idiot instead of just mocking them for the lulz…
lol imagine trying to ‘win’ an argument with an idiot instead of just mocking them for the lulz…
It’s not about winning, or replying directly to just the troll/conflict bot.
It’s about leaving an elaboration of the initial opinion, for everyone else who comes by later to the topic and reads.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you are obligated to host a platform so shitty people can use it to share shitty ideals. It simply means that you won’t get arrested on a federal level.
Websites can do whatever they want, including deciding that they don’t want to be a platform for hate speech. If people are seeking a place for this conversation genre to happen, and they want it enough, they can run their own website.
Imagine if you invited a friend of a friend over, and they were sharing nasty ideals at your Christmas party. And they brought their friends. Are you just going to sit there and let them turn your dinner into a political rally? No, you’re going to kick them out. It’s your dinner, like it is your website. If you don’t kick them out, then at some level, you’re aligning with them.
I like your example there a lot, I’m going to use that in the future when I’m trying to express that notion. In the past I’ve never been able to articulate that exact concept. So thanks!
Yea… Meta took the same “free peaches” approach and the entire fucking globe is now dealing with various versions of white nationalism. So like, can we actually give censorship of hate a fucking try for once? I’m willing to go down that road.
Never ever fall for that one. You can look at various regimes in the world what happens when “hate” gets censored. Demonitizing is one thing, technical implementations to “live censor hate” would be catastrophic.
I’m looking. Is something supposed to stand out about Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, New Zealand, Sweden, and the UK?
Actually, yes. In the UK people (including Jewish people) are being arrested and jailed for speaking out against Israeli naziism and genocide as inciting “hate.”
That example is literally EXACTLY why people, myself included, believe that the censoring of certain types of speech needs to remain exclusively a private enterprise.
That’s an interesting point. On one hand Israel is the way it is because right wing nationalism has been normalized through open and free speech in the US. But Israel is also where it is because of the conflation of the meaning of antisemitism shutting down anyone challenging it. Though, I am seeing that conflation being properly challenged more so now than ever before but it’s obviously not fast enough. It’s probably time to implement looking more at collective actions more than words within governmental policy writing. As in mass killings = bad. I wish humans didn’t suck.
There is real time censorship present anywhere in europe? Nowhere near. We have “you have to act within certain time” laws when content gets flaged, that’s all. You could argue forcing DNS resolvers to block certain domains is censorhip though. Look at China. Talk bad about politics in your private chats with your mates, i’m sure your censorship dream will do you and your family well! Heck even talking about Winnie poh is “hate” or was this not true?
Again, demonitize them as you want. But censorship just leads to the groups isolating more and more from the world.
Just look at the beliefs of people witch a member of cults (or religions if you want) - thousands of people which are explicitly denied via rules to gather knowledge in the internet (looking at you Mormons). I’d like to call that psychological censorship - it aims for the same goal in a way but I get way to off topic
So substack is a pro-nazi platform run by Nazi enablers, got it.
🤦
Bring out the bad-faith arguments, lol.
If you let Nazis congregate at your bar, congratulations, it’s a Nazi bar now.
Lemme guess, the room you wrote this comment in has an Iron Cross somewhere in it.
“we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.” I mean they are litterally Condoning bigotry.
“His response similarly doesn’t engage other questions from the Substackers Against Nazis authors, like why these policies allow it to moderate spam and newsletters from sex workers but not Nazis.”
Doesn’t seem very consistent.
Substack: Nazis are cool, but you better not be selling sex related shit! We have standards!
“We do not condone Nazi propaganda, but we are very concerned about sex work causing social degeneracy.”
Substack is likely very concerned about the purity of the volk
Condone (transitive verb): To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.
Neat.
Interesting, I generally think of the Merriam-Webster definition:
to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless
Or perhaps even further than that: actually approving of something. Guess “condone” is a little weaker of a word than I thought. But its popularity calls for being extra careful of even overlooking wrongdoing.
Funny how words mean things
Nazism doesn’t deserve tolerance, any person who doesn’t punch it in the face is equal or worse.
“Let’s tolerate the people that say they want to genocide entire ethnic groups” Surely nothing bad is gonna happen /s
Yes genocide is bad, but not taking their money is worse!
Like 1930s Germany did.
Sure, the Night of the Long Knives was bad, but not having it is worse!
How?
Troll?
So the US government? Except instead of “tolerate” write “massively support and arm”
deleted by creator
So let me get this straight… They don’t like Nazis, but Nazis not making money is worse than Nazis making money?
No, people writing about sexy stuff and getting paid is worse than Nazis making money.
Edit: Being fair, the bible thumpers of old who established all the laws/morals which underlie most of the regulations today would take a big big problem with people writing sexy stuff. Nazis hating Jews would not be a big problem for them.
Anything related to sex or women’s sexuality that’s very bad.
Letting Nazi’s spread their hate, that’s good.
Says every social media, internet company ever.
Nazis making money and Substack not getting a cut of it is apparently worse than Nazis making money.
That’s the part that gets me. If it were just not removing content, well, I’d probably still complain but they’d have a coherent freedom of speech argument. But… they have to pay Nazis to make Nazi content and take a cut, otherwise it’s censorship and that somehow helps the Nazis?
They are taking a free-speech approach, I suppose.
Ah, I see we’re using the SCOTUS definition of ‘free speech’ where money is speech.
It’s 2023 and we have all the world’s knowledge at our fingertips but somehow people still have no idea what free speech is…
“If we don’t publish their stuff, they’ll go somewhere else where
we don’t get their advertising revenuewe can’t check that their material doesn’t cross the lines of our standardswhich we don’t enforce because money. Therefore, not publishing them would be a violation ofincomefree speech because theybring in money from their other fanaticscouldn’t possibly post any where else and so is worse than notmaking money offpublishingand promotingthem”
Tolerating Naziism and allowing it to use social tools to spread its hate is what makes it worse.
Being a Nazi isn’t a “view.” It is a political movement guided by the principles of hate, violence, and genocide.
And they are saying they are cool with that.
To be clear — what McKenzie is saying here is that his company will continue to pay Nazis to write Nazi essays. Not just that they will host Nazi essays, but they will pay for them.
We already knew that SS liked Nazis.
All joking aside, silencing Nazis and deplatforming them is LITERALLY fighting against them. How is allowing them to make money and market themselves on your platform doing anything to stem the tide of Nazism? Obviously they’re playing culture war games and saying they’re not.
Yeah, people don’t seem to realize how insidious this shit is. Unfettered capitalism is allowing these fuckers to gain credibility and giving them a soapbox under the guise of “free speech.”
The desire for profit above all else, combined with the fact that the last of the people alive during (and old enough to understand) WW2 dying off, has been allowing fascism to wrap its filthy tendrils around our society once again. Preventing these people from taking power needs to be our priority, but unfortunately, constantly having to fight against this shit impedes all other progress.
Free speech is not absolute. Fascists (and particularly ones that call themselves Nazis) have no place in modern society, and they should be given no quarter because we’ve seen what happens if we don’t root them out.
This is not just a disagreement on policy, or a mere difference of opinion. These people literally want my friends dead.
Nazism isn’t an ideology, is a direct threat of violence. Anyone around a Nazi has a right to self defense rooted in natural law. That’s why is fine to punch Nazis.
So they’re Nazis
deleted by creator
Subspace Nazis
