I disagree with this metaphor. Humans aren’t inherently evil, in contrast to the dragon. Even though the guy definitely did evil shit as a CEO and is responsible for thousands of dead people, he is not fully evil. I’m very sure he also did good things.
For me this is really important, because that’s exactly why I oppose death penalty. No human is absolutely evil, and thus in every person there is something worth preserving and being protected.
A couple things. I don’t see any billionaire as a human, and to be frank, they did it to themselves. They’ve spent decades spinning a narrative that they’re this special untouchable caste of modern-day demigods. That we have to try them differently and respectfully, because they have more money, and the closer you get to “God”, the further you get from “Human”.
Secondly, he chose to do evil. He willingly and without hesitation discarded his humanity. I can’t be bothered to feel bad for someone like that.
I’d like to inquire as to what, specifically, you disagree with. I understand that you don’t think any person is inherently evil, however I hold that actions are a reflection of one’s character. While this CEO may indeed have done a couple good turns for people he personally knew or cared about, his actions and decisions as the CEO of a health insurance company have inflicted incalculable suffering upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people and their families. As a human being, I could never imagine doing such things, nor do I want to.
This, to me, reflects a deeply sociopathic character. Selfish, arrogant, greedy, and malicious. This was a person who saw themselves above mere mortals such as you and I, whom he saw as tools, disposable and replaceable. And when you see yourself as above mere mortals, would you not want the mortals to believe it, as well? Is it then, so surprising that the mortals stop seeing you as human altogether?
I agree with everything you say, up until the last sentence. Probably as a disclaimer, I study psychology and want to become a clinical psychotherapist. I deeply believe that no person wants to be bad. In fact, I am of the utmost conviction that every person has the potential to become a better person than they are right now. That does not absolve him of his crimes - in fact, it is quite the contrary: he chose to go down the path of evil and to condemn people to die. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot ever change to become better.
It is a part of my life philosophy that every person can heal. Obviously many people won’t do so - this guy DEFINITELY would’ve had the chance to go to a psychotherapist himself, for sure. But that does not mean that he deserved to die. My argumentation is heavily based on Albert Ellis (one of the founders of cognitive-behavioural therapy) and REBT. In short, Ellis said that our actions do not determine us as whole human beings. The fact that we often act badly doesn’t make us bad human beings, nor does the fact that we act well makes us good. We are simply humans, and to judge us means putting yourself in the shoes of a God. We can and should judge our actions, by all means - but we are far, far more than actions. To judge a person as a whole is a position I do not want to take. And even though this guy wanted to see himself as a God, I personally want to stay human and recognize that he is and was a broken spirit and a human, just as you and I are. Even though he might have wanted to discard his humanity, he still is and stays human.
Tl;Dr - terrible actions, has committed countless crimes. But his actions don’t determine his worth as a human. Thus I do not want to say that he deserved to die, nor that he was evil as a human.
terrible actions, has committed countless crimes. But his actions don’t determine his worth as a human.
Alright, I’m confused with this take. What does determine the worth of a human? I would argue it’s only their actions that do, as that’s the only thing that has an effect on the world. Whether he believes he’s doing good or evil doesn’t really matter if he is actually doing evil.
Value is pretty much required to be something that can be measured. You can’t measure all possible futures. You can measure what they’ve chosen to act on. I don’t really care if Hitler was mislead into believing Jews were evil and could have been a better person. I care that he chose to do immense harm to innocent people. It would have been better had he been murdered earlier, regardless of if there was a chance you could convince him with a really good argument or whatever.
Sure, I hope everyone improves and it’s a shame when people die, but when someone is actively choosing to remove that choice from others, their value is less than that of everyone else.
That is actually a very interesting take, thank you for sharing.
For me, it was always clear that actions do not define us as people. I never thought that people might see it differently.
I think it is important to distinguish the term value here. I hope we both agree that every person has dignity. I live in Germany, and the first sentence of our Constitution is “Human dignity shall be inviolable.” That means that I do not have the right to judge a persons value as a person - the Nazis were a famous example for doing that. That’s why in today’s judiciary system, at least in Germany, we e.g. do not lock people away forever: a person always has the chance to improve, work upon themselves, and get out of prison. The prison time can be extended into infinity, if a person poses a threat to society - but if they don’t, they can get free. Their value to society may be close to zero, perhaps negative - but they still possess value and dignity as a human.
This guy was subtracting value from society, and his value to you and me was probably negative. But it still is different than a humans internal value. To murder a person is to take their internal and external value, and to break their dignity. This is something which is not compatible with my consciousness.
Another factor to consider is dehumanizing people is often the first step in justifying atrocities against them, such as the murder of this doubtless terrible CEO, and that has an impact on both the person doing the dehumanizing and the person or persons being dehumanized.
Dragons aren’t inharently evil either. They mostly just want to horde wealth. Sure, they do evil things to amass that wealth, but that doesn’t make them evil, right?
Wait, was this about dragons or the ultra-wealthy? I forgot what I was talking about.
Yes, good point. I agree.
Maybe there’s also a difference in perception of these tales, because when a dragon is slain the people can regain their wealth. In this case though, the wealth of the CEO doesn’t get transferred to the people.
Buuut one can argue that we have an inheritance tax, thus part of his hoarded money WILL get transferred to the people, in which case the murderer is actually returning the wealth to the people and the dragon metaphor isn’t that invalid after all. It gets very quickly very murky ethically. I presume that while the wealth is parked away in some off-shore, probably some of it at least will return to the State. A lot depends though on the tax rate, how exactly the taxing goes, who does it,…
Long story short - this guy was way too rich, no question asked. That’s for sure.
As the other comment says, the story is almost never about taking back the wealth. It’s about stopping them from doing more harm. The people don’t celebrate because they can take their wealth back. They celebrate because they’re no longer being murdered by a horrible monster.
With this said, someone will take his place. If you slay enough dragons the dragons will start to worry about if they’re next though. They’ll hopefully try to fix the system that they broke so they will be honestly tried for their crimes instead of murdered.
That is a very good point - thank you for bringing it up. You are right.
I hope this death was enough for the rich people to realize that they need to change, and that no more people will die. I presume that’s something we can agree upon.
This doesn’t work here, because by death of the CEO the insurance of the USA probably won’t be switched to a public healthcare. The dragon will continue eating people, simply with a different head.
the people we oppose have been widening the wealth gap, shrinking the middle class, and pushing more people into poverty. And in America - not having enough money means you, or your loved one, dies.
That particular dragon was in charge of denying as many insurance claims as possible without getting anyone too ravenous for his blood. He was playing a game with people’s lives, eventually he was bound to lose. His true cause of death was greed.
Unless you’re a billionaire who hoards wealth, you’re no dragon, and nobody cares about you until you step out of line of being an obedient money cow
Well, really, they did it to themselves. We didn’t turn them into greedy, avaricious weath-hoarding dragons, they did. The closer one moves the slider to “God”, the further it moves from “Human”.
Pretty sure that CEO was integral in the continuation of policies and procedures that determined who the peasants were, if not the creation of, long before the shooter decided he was a dragon.
Listen Batman, the world isnt black and white. A man who has harmed millions has seen punishment for harming millions. Whether or not you find it just because a judge, jury, and prosecution didn’t get to decide on that punishment according to some made up rules is your opinion. It does not speak to the “true colors” of the oppressed groups who are affected by the bullshit machine that is US healthcare.
Even if the penalty (death) can be morally justified it still shouldn’t be celebrated. Also, I oppose death penalty - the people celebrating this have no moral standing to oppose it too. They’re on the wrong side of history in my view.
there was nothing short of death that would stop that man from continuing to deny the right to live of millions of people. Money rules the world, do you think even if found guilty of genocide he’d face prison time? Do you think even if he was, miraculously, put in prison he’d go some place else but the most luxurious prison available for the shortest amount of time possible?
How many million dollar bottles of champagne do you think he drank with the money that he denied those who put their lives in his hands? Is that not a celebration of their deaths?
How is it wrong, to feel satisfaction that he finally met the fate he wrote for himself?
I usually wouldn’t, but I do celebrate justice. I prefer it when people don’t need to be harmed, but sometimes there isn’t another option. For example, Hitler dying I think was great. I would have preferred him to be murdered earlier in fact. Let me know if you disagree with that.
Our justice system is fundamentally flawed. The wealthy will never see justice through the justice system. The system exists so that when injustice is done people don’t need to seek justice on their own. The system is supposed to handle it. When that system no longer works towards this purpose, it requires a new justice system. The wealthy need to be made to realize that subverting the justice system to protect themselves from it puts them in danger. Until it’s fixed, I welcome justice in this form as well.
So many here showing their true colors and demonstrating that they’re actually no better than the people they oppose.
See my other comment:
I disagree with this metaphor. Humans aren’t inherently evil, in contrast to the dragon. Even though the guy definitely did evil shit as a CEO and is responsible for thousands of dead people, he is not fully evil. I’m very sure he also did good things.
For me this is really important, because that’s exactly why I oppose death penalty. No human is absolutely evil, and thus in every person there is something worth preserving and being protected.
A couple things. I don’t see any billionaire as a human, and to be frank, they did it to themselves. They’ve spent decades spinning a narrative that they’re this special untouchable caste of modern-day demigods. That we have to try them differently and respectfully, because they have more money, and the closer you get to “God”, the further you get from “Human”.
Secondly, he chose to do evil. He willingly and without hesitation discarded his humanity. I can’t be bothered to feel bad for someone like that.
I disagree. Still thank you for replying - I appreciate it. It got me thinking about my personal position.
I’d like to inquire as to what, specifically, you disagree with. I understand that you don’t think any person is inherently evil, however I hold that actions are a reflection of one’s character. While this CEO may indeed have done a couple good turns for people he personally knew or cared about, his actions and decisions as the CEO of a health insurance company have inflicted incalculable suffering upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people and their families. As a human being, I could never imagine doing such things, nor do I want to.
This, to me, reflects a deeply sociopathic character. Selfish, arrogant, greedy, and malicious. This was a person who saw themselves above mere mortals such as you and I, whom he saw as tools, disposable and replaceable. And when you see yourself as above mere mortals, would you not want the mortals to believe it, as well? Is it then, so surprising that the mortals stop seeing you as human altogether?
I agree with everything you say, up until the last sentence. Probably as a disclaimer, I study psychology and want to become a clinical psychotherapist. I deeply believe that no person wants to be bad. In fact, I am of the utmost conviction that every person has the potential to become a better person than they are right now. That does not absolve him of his crimes - in fact, it is quite the contrary: he chose to go down the path of evil and to condemn people to die. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot ever change to become better. It is a part of my life philosophy that every person can heal. Obviously many people won’t do so - this guy DEFINITELY would’ve had the chance to go to a psychotherapist himself, for sure. But that does not mean that he deserved to die. My argumentation is heavily based on Albert Ellis (one of the founders of cognitive-behavioural therapy) and REBT. In short, Ellis said that our actions do not determine us as whole human beings. The fact that we often act badly doesn’t make us bad human beings, nor does the fact that we act well makes us good. We are simply humans, and to judge us means putting yourself in the shoes of a God. We can and should judge our actions, by all means - but we are far, far more than actions. To judge a person as a whole is a position I do not want to take. And even though this guy wanted to see himself as a God, I personally want to stay human and recognize that he is and was a broken spirit and a human, just as you and I are. Even though he might have wanted to discard his humanity, he still is and stays human.
Tl;Dr - terrible actions, has committed countless crimes. But his actions don’t determine his worth as a human. Thus I do not want to say that he deserved to die, nor that he was evil as a human.
Alright, I’m confused with this take. What does determine the worth of a human? I would argue it’s only their actions that do, as that’s the only thing that has an effect on the world. Whether he believes he’s doing good or evil doesn’t really matter if he is actually doing evil.
Value is pretty much required to be something that can be measured. You can’t measure all possible futures. You can measure what they’ve chosen to act on. I don’t really care if Hitler was mislead into believing Jews were evil and could have been a better person. I care that he chose to do immense harm to innocent people. It would have been better had he been murdered earlier, regardless of if there was a chance you could convince him with a really good argument or whatever.
Sure, I hope everyone improves and it’s a shame when people die, but when someone is actively choosing to remove that choice from others, their value is less than that of everyone else.
That is actually a very interesting take, thank you for sharing.
For me, it was always clear that actions do not define us as people. I never thought that people might see it differently.
I think it is important to distinguish the term value here. I hope we both agree that every person has dignity. I live in Germany, and the first sentence of our Constitution is “Human dignity shall be inviolable.” That means that I do not have the right to judge a persons value as a person - the Nazis were a famous example for doing that. That’s why in today’s judiciary system, at least in Germany, we e.g. do not lock people away forever: a person always has the chance to improve, work upon themselves, and get out of prison. The prison time can be extended into infinity, if a person poses a threat to society - but if they don’t, they can get free. Their value to society may be close to zero, perhaps negative - but they still possess value and dignity as a human.
This guy was subtracting value from society, and his value to you and me was probably negative. But it still is different than a humans internal value. To murder a person is to take their internal and external value, and to break their dignity. This is something which is not compatible with my consciousness.
Another factor to consider is dehumanizing people is often the first step in justifying atrocities against them, such as the murder of this doubtless terrible CEO, and that has an impact on both the person doing the dehumanizing and the person or persons being dehumanized.
Dragons aren’t inharently evil either. They mostly just want to horde wealth. Sure, they do evil things to amass that wealth, but that doesn’t make them evil, right?
Wait, was this about dragons or the ultra-wealthy? I forgot what I was talking about.
Yes, good point. I agree. Maybe there’s also a difference in perception of these tales, because when a dragon is slain the people can regain their wealth. In this case though, the wealth of the CEO doesn’t get transferred to the people. Buuut one can argue that we have an inheritance tax, thus part of his hoarded money WILL get transferred to the people, in which case the murderer is actually returning the wealth to the people and the dragon metaphor isn’t that invalid after all. It gets very quickly very murky ethically. I presume that while the wealth is parked away in some off-shore, probably some of it at least will return to the State. A lot depends though on the tax rate, how exactly the taxing goes, who does it,…
Long story short - this guy was way too rich, no question asked. That’s for sure.
As the other comment says, the story is almost never about taking back the wealth. It’s about stopping them from doing more harm. The people don’t celebrate because they can take their wealth back. They celebrate because they’re no longer being murdered by a horrible monster.
With this said, someone will take his place. If you slay enough dragons the dragons will start to worry about if they’re next though. They’ll hopefully try to fix the system that they broke so they will be honestly tried for their crimes instead of murdered.
That is a very good point - thank you for bringing it up. You are right.
I hope this death was enough for the rich people to realize that they need to change, and that no more people will die. I presume that’s something we can agree upon.
This singular one will not. As sad as it is, it has to become more expected for them to fear it. Terrorism isn’t good, but it can be used to do good.
The usual impetus for slaying the dragon is to stop it from eating people.
This doesn’t work here, because by death of the CEO the insurance of the USA probably won’t be switched to a public healthcare. The dragon will continue eating people, simply with a different head.
I didn’t say this was an effective way to solve the problem, nor do I think the other poster’s assertion is accurate.
humans aren’t inherently evil. Most aren’t, I agree. But some just are.
Thank you for letting me know about my phrasing. I disagree, and have corrected my post now. Thank you!
It’s all fun and games as long as you get to decice who the dragons are. The people you oppose have their’s too.
the people we oppose have been widening the wealth gap, shrinking the middle class, and pushing more people into poverty. And in America - not having enough money means you, or your loved one, dies.
That particular dragon was in charge of denying as many insurance claims as possible without getting anyone too ravenous for his blood. He was playing a game with people’s lives, eventually he was bound to lose. His true cause of death was greed.
Unless you’re a billionaire who hoards wealth, you’re no dragon, and nobody cares about you until you step out of line of being an obedient money cow
Well, really, they did it to themselves. We didn’t turn them into greedy, avaricious weath-hoarding dragons, they did. The closer one moves the slider to “God”, the further it moves from “Human”.
(The ones hoarding the wealth like dragons are the dragons)
Pretty sure that CEO was integral in the continuation of policies and procedures that determined who the peasants were, if not the creation of, long before the shooter decided he was a dragon.
What do you mean by this? Should people who cause incalculable harm to others not be removed from their position to cause harm?
Literally celebrating the murder of a person is what I mean.
Listen Batman, the world isnt black and white. A man who has harmed millions has seen punishment for harming millions. Whether or not you find it just because a judge, jury, and prosecution didn’t get to decide on that punishment according to some made up rules is your opinion. It does not speak to the “true colors” of the oppressed groups who are affected by the bullshit machine that is US healthcare.
Even if the penalty (death) can be morally justified it still shouldn’t be celebrated. Also, I oppose death penalty - the people celebrating this have no moral standing to oppose it too. They’re on the wrong side of history in my view.
there was nothing short of death that would stop that man from continuing to deny the right to live of millions of people. Money rules the world, do you think even if found guilty of genocide he’d face prison time? Do you think even if he was, miraculously, put in prison he’d go some place else but the most luxurious prison available for the shortest amount of time possible?
How many million dollar bottles of champagne do you think he drank with the money that he denied those who put their lives in his hands? Is that not a celebration of their deaths?
How is it wrong, to feel satisfaction that he finally met the fate he wrote for himself?
Law is typically enforced at the end of a gun. If the government won’t do anything to stop these people, someone else will.
I usually wouldn’t, but I do celebrate justice. I prefer it when people don’t need to be harmed, but sometimes there isn’t another option. For example, Hitler dying I think was great. I would have preferred him to be murdered earlier in fact. Let me know if you disagree with that.
Our justice system is fundamentally flawed. The wealthy will never see justice through the justice system. The system exists so that when injustice is done people don’t need to seek justice on their own. The system is supposed to handle it. When that system no longer works towards this purpose, it requires a new justice system. The wealthy need to be made to realize that subverting the justice system to protect themselves from it puts them in danger. Until it’s fixed, I welcome justice in this form as well.