I’m very disappointed in poem_for_your_sprog for almost understanding this point, and then immediately making the same mistake she was calling out
‘I have to sort my books!’ she cried,
With self-indulgent glee;
With senseless,narcissisticpride:
‘I’m just so OCD!’
‘How random, guys!’ I smiled and said,
Then left without a peep -
And washed my hands until they bled,
And cried myself to sleep.
Well sure, you can say you’re using the original Greek meaning, but if you did that, I’d judge you for all the cultural baggage associated with the Greek meaning. You’ve got to do your homework when you cite ancient history, because if you don’t, then you might not realise you’re referencing a queerphobic interpretation of an ancient myth.
Could you elaborate on this please? The only thing I remember about Narcissus is that, when he was born, a seer or something made a prophecy that he would live forever so long as he never knew himself. He had a bunch of suitors, all of whom he spurned, until one day he saw his own reflection in a lake. Being unable to obtain the only thing he has ever loved (himself), he sat by the lake staring until he died.
You’ve nearly got the myth right, just missing one detail: he only fell in love with his reflection after he was cursed by the goddess Rhamnusia. She sentenced him to die of thirst because he wouldn’t date anyone. He was only 16.
That’s all from Ovid. Try to evaluate that story in a modern context, and you’ll see it becomes pretty gross. I really like the story as an example of how horrible people can be to asexuals. But most people side with Ameinias’ interpretation that not wanting to date anyone is an act of abuse and hubris worthy of execution and two thousand years of hate.
But there isn’t one single myth, you’re only citing Conon’s version, which is the only one that fits the narrative you’re trying to portray here. Why not Ovid’s version? Why not Parthenius’s version? Why not Pausanias’s version?
Ovid! That’s the name I couldn’t remember. I looked it up and ‘Echo and Narcissus’ is definitely the version I remember reading in school.
Those versions support my interpretation too.
No they don’t.
That’s a bold claim to make, when I’ve explained the full myth and you haven’t. Now, if you were to cite any particular example and build an argument from it, then I would take your objection in good faith and respond in kind. However, if I were to pick apart and examine each of those four examples, why that would waste perhaps an hour of my time, all in response to three words of yours. That would be holding myself to a hundred times the standard of evidence you’ve provided. And if you were to demand I do that before you believe me, well the word for that is sealioning. Which is why I have concluded your argument is not, at this moment, in good faith.
One of the greatest arguments ever constructed. Truly.
Fine, I’ll analyse ONE of the alternatives to Conon you cited: Ovid.
There we are. Narcissus rejected someone and they prayed to the gods for revenge, and outlined very clear parameters for the curse they wanted Narcissus to suffer. They wanted him to be made to love and not have what he loves. So Rhamnusia made him fall in love with his reflection.
Now get off your lazy ass and do some research if you want to argue with me.
English is a living language. If enough people take narcissistic to mean self-absorbed that’s what it means, and the general population is not queerphobic for using it that way.
That’s fucking gay.
more
Sorry for using the word that way, but I remember growing up and hearing other kids say that like it meant nothing. Just like you. I never liked hearing that language, but I didn’t realise how distasteful it was until I got a bit older and realised I was gay.
I hope we as a society have grown beyond such callous cruelty, but people like you remind me that making others feel empathy is a never ending battle.
Please, do tell
Narcissus wasn’t arrogant in the Greek myth. He was a 16 year old kid who everyone thought was beautiful. Lots of people wanted to bone him, but he just wanted to be left alone. After this one guy, Ameinias, proposed marriage to him for like the tenth time, Narcissus told him to fuck off and die. Ameinias did as he was told, and prayed for Nemesis for revenge. Ameinias thought Narcissus didn’t want to marry him because he was arrogant, so he prayed to the god of punishment for hubris. The ancient Greeks didn’t understand asexuality or being a late bloomer, so they took Ameinias’ side in interpreting the myth.
Anyone who thinks “narcissist” is an insult is also unknowingly taking Ameinias’ side.
Dude. If you try to apply 21st century values to ancient Greek mythology, you’re going to have a bad time every time. The word “narcissistic” has a meaning in our culture that’s entirely distinct from what you describe above and is in no way “queerphobic.”
You’re absolutely correct that the modern word “narcissistic” has little to do with ancient Greek mythology. See, the modern use is actually based on popular media portrayals of narcissistic personality disorder, which is why flippant use of the term is ableist.
For some reason, some people think the word’s ancient Greek etymology means the modern use isn’t ableist. They have some erroneous perception that modern people are speaking Greek when they say it. But as you now point out, that’s ridiculous, because the word’s meaning has changed over the last two thousand years. So the word has gone from being queerphobic to being ableist.
Truly, anyone who says the word is okay because of ancient history is an idiot.
This is the opposite of true. The adjective “narcissistic” has been in common usage since the late 19th century to mean the exact same thing it means today, i.e. “self-centered.” The term “Narcissistic Personality Disorder” wasn’t coined until 1968.
Truly, you’re eager to manufacture outrage for some benign things. What’s up with that
“In common use in the 19th century” is a liberal interpretation of Havelock Ellis coining the phrase “Narcissus-like” in 1898. Sure, that’s the 19th century for two more years, but the actual word “narcissism” doesn’t appear until 1911, and it’s clearly within a psychiatric context.