That’s basically the difference between positive and negative freedom.
Negative freedom is the freedom from restrictions (like nobody prohibiting you from walking) while positive freedom is the ability for you to do something (like being able to walk)
Asterix did a great bit on that. Slaves are freed and put to work for money, but suddenly they owe for food, housing, clothing, infrastructure etc. and are just as much slaves as before. In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don’t have to worry anymore.
In fact, they go back to being slaves because then they don’t have to worry anymore.
This last bit is Neo-Confederate propaganda. The “slaves were happy to be slaves” myth is wildly apocryphal.
Far more often, the freedmen leave their plantation economies in pursuit of more lucrative work in more industrial and urban regions. Harlem, New York and Detroit, Michigan are testament to the exodus of American colored people northward following the war. Or they strike out to undeveloped territories and form their own municipalities. Large black communities popped up across the Southwest and West coast, as the post-Civil War frontier was subjected to industrial scale genocide of native peoples.
The consequence of this mass migration is a labor shortage at home. One which can only be resolved by (a) raising wages / living standards until people want to stay or (b) re-enslaving the population through other means. In the case of the US South, these “other means” were the Jim Crow laws, which transformed the private plantation economy into a publicly managed (and privately profitable) state prison economy.
Following the end of Reconstruction under Rutherford B. Hayes, southern state governments imposed a suite of laws forbidding “vagrancy” and constricting the right of colored people to travel unattended. Independent communities of black citizens were raided and demolished (The Wilmington Massacre of 1898, the Tulsa Massacre of 1921 being two notable examples - really all of Red Summer being a major historical turning point for American race relations). Enormous prison compounds were constructed. And the incarceration rate among people of color skyrocketed.
The campaign to re-enslave the colored population was a central position of the “Dixiecrats” straight into the LBJ administration. And capturing these revanchists was pivotal to the Nixon and Reagan campaigns, even as the taste for segregation soured nationally on the American tongue. All of this was covered up and expunged from US History, following the 1980s Reagan Revolution and the reactionary efforts to undo the Civil Rights Movement. So it’s very easy to never know the long dark winter of civil rights in post-Civil War American history.
But “slaves were actually happier to be on the plantation” is textbook Coolidge Era white nationalist revisionism.
That’s all well and good, but Asterix is a satirical comic book making a point about wage slavery, not happy slaves. The author is French, the story in France, and the slaves are Roman.
And I might have imagined the re-enslaving, too. I can’t find it in plot summaries. Maybe it’s in the movie adaptation, but the scene of their “freeing” is pretty clear about its point.
The author is French, the story in France, and the slaves are Roman.
No shortage of French slavery in the New World. Just ask anyone from Louisiana or Haiti.
Maybe it’s in the movie adaptation, but the scene of their “freeing” is pretty clear about its point.
Oh sure. You can find all sorts of period critiques of industrial capitalism as slavery with extra steps.
But the notion that people would volunteer to return to bondage really undersells how hard plantation overseers and state police in slave states had to work to keep them there.
Which is why I plan to fuck off to a mountain, and play dead.
Yes, and this is why old school liberals (i.e. supporters of liberty for all) support social programs. Supporting those that can’t comfortably support themselves brings freedom from exploitation.
Wage slavery. The US is one of the worst offenders. By binding your healthcare to your employer and having next to no worker protection laws, the loss of your job might cause homelessness or death. Is that really a choice? Work or die? And with stagnating wages who has the financial security and time to fight for their rights?
This is of course by design.
It is with this premise that I began to formulate a concept of UBI, ranked income, and so forth. People simply can’t do stuff if they don’t have enough things to support a baseline existence. That baseline should be strong enough to offer education, health, freedom to wait for jobs that aren’t abusive, the ability to travel, and so on. Agency is the core to an effective human, and our capitalistic society is designed to confer that agency upon a few.
It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.
Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.
– Joey S
Freedom to stave.
Yeah. Marx called it formal vs. real freedom. All the people are free to sleep under the bridges or at a five star penthouse. But some are forced to sleep under the bridge and only a few have means to exercise the freedom to enter the penthouse.
Marx misses the point of equality and conflates it with equity. In the ideal u have the freedom to work hard get well educated and make a shitonne of money then have the freedom that grants. Or u can choose to be lazy and not do any of that. It’s your choice.
We live in a society with a lot of equality almost anyone smart enough can work hard enough to get themselves out of almost any situation.
It is entirely within your choice to live under a bridge. And if unit truly isn’t then it was ur genetics that denied you the possibility to do better at which point we have to start talking about Charles Darwin.
Bro we live in the world where the 50% of the richest families gained their wealth through inheritance. They represent like .000001% of humanity and control half the world’s wealth.
There’s no working hard and getting rich. Maybe you were born rich in CA and went in college early enough to get in on the tech wave.
The Facebook dev didn’t work harder than a farm laborer. They were born into privilege and got lucky and landed in one of the few viable careers
I see ur disconnect here. Ur from the 3rd world nation known as the unites states I’m from Australia where we have actual equality. And no the Facebook dev didn’t work harder he worked smarter
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We live in a society with a lot of equality almost anyone smart enough can work hard enough to get themselves out of almost any situation
[Citation Needed]
The problem with statements like this is tautological. If somebody can’t get themselves out of a situation, one can just breezily dismiss it by saying that they didn’t work hard enough.
It’s why I think that we need to send Elon Musk to colonize Mars. By himself. He’s a self-made job creator, so he can start up a successful business first, create those jobs, and then send for workers later, right? He wouldn’t even need heavy, expensive life support equipment!
If you think that this is ridiculous, then you have to concede that there are actually some structural obstacles that can’t be overcome by any amount of gumption. (And is it really just a lack of effort that explains why nobody born in Soweto in 1971 is a near-trillionaire?)
[Citation Needed]
My experience and all the people I’ve spoken to throughout my life. Not 1 single person in a shut scenario didn’t have options to negate or escape said scenario.
The problem with statements like this is tautological. If somebody can’t get themselves out of a situation, one can just breezily dismiss it by saying that they didn’t work hard enough.
Or they weren’t smart enough. Or they where not fit (in the Darwinian sense) enough to get out of it.
It’s why I think that we need to send Elon Musk to colonize Mars. By himself. He’s a self-made job creator, so he can start up a successful business first, create those jobs, and then send for workers later, right? He wouldn’t even need heavy, expensive life support equipment!
That’s an excellent strawman. He went from a middle class situation (similar to thousands of people of people myself included) to the worlds richest man. He was not handed everything he has on a platter. He admittedly started with more than most but he still did infinitely better than anyone else born to similar level of advantage.
If you think that this is ridiculous, then you have to concede that there are actually some structural obstacles that can’t be overcome by any amount of gumption.
Their absolutely are structural obstacles just that these obstacles are infinitely less than previous. I mean by your logic we claim claim that the dictatorial control of Iran by the iatola is a structural obstacle and justify trumps actions in Iran hell we can justify the dropping of the nuclear bomb on Japan or go a step further and justify Hitlers actions as he confiscating property from an entire class of people and redistributed to those with less this still counts as removing structural obstacles regardless of the morality of such actions. Blind adherence to your argument takes us to a very dark place very quickly.
And is it really just a lack of effort that explains why nobody born in Soweto in 1971 is a near-trillionaire?
I want u to go to south Africa on Google street view and scroll back through time just looking at the streets and what u see. Then I want u to think about why the changes ur witnessing have happened and what changed into the period of time for which these changes happened (demographic changes might be a good indicator).
Elon Musk was not middle class. Unbelievably dumb statement. He grew up in one of the largest houses in Pretoria. Don’t get jealous though as his father was a child rapist. Like most wealthy people, rotten to the core.
I did some googling and I would say comfortably upper middle class. I guess ur definition and mine are different.
Glad you did the right thing and looked it up instead of talking out your ass.
Is that u admitting I was right wrapped in a bad faith personal attack? Perhaps let’s try keep to discussing ideas instead of insulting each other like mid witted barbarians.
My experience and all the people I’ve spoken to throughout my life.
That only shows that SOME of the people who somehow relates to you, have options.
Have you ever wondered why they don’t take those options? You might have missed something that prevents them.
Or maybe better: Have you wondered about the people further away from you? I can guarantee you, millions of people literally don’t have any good options. If you haven’t met any, that only means you have met any.
I’ve met many people of many different nations of many different levels of wealth and success. Every single one of them in a shit scenario got their by choices they made.
Why don’t I take those options? Cos I can read the statistics on everyone before me, I paid attention in school, I realised that drugs, debt, gambling, criminal behaviour etc don’t improve my life. I chose an education path and career that make it impossible for me to end up a brokie loser
Bro, I’ve traveled the world and met people who have traveled and you are not one of them. You have the opinion of a child that has never left 4Chan. I imagine you don’t even get out much in your local area.
Lots of people don’t have access to any of the information sources you had, or the ability to take any of the options you did.
You had plenty of good options, and you chose from those. Some people only have bad options. They pick bad options, because that’s all they have.
Almost every single person on this planet has internet access and that can teach u literally anything. And please explain when doing crack is the best of a set of bad options?
OP shared a thought. I pointed this is a formal concept and pointed the name, so they can search for more. The concept describes a real and observable phenomena.
Why are you bringing moral judgement of people here? Even if poor people are guilt of their own poverty (they aren’t) like you are implying, it doesn’t change they are formally, but not really free. Marx description stills holds up.
Not to mention that his argument started swaying a little too close to Eugenics in that last sentence
Had to nuke the profile on my instance. The modlog tells the crocodile is toning down their true opinions to appear less egregious.
OP shared a thought. I pointed this is a formal concept and pointed the name, so they can search for more. The concept describes a real and observable phenomena.
Not attacking you just ensuring my ideas are visible enough to help insure that anyone falling down the rabbit hole has had enough exposure to my ideology that they will accept the propaganda as it gets mainlined into their veins.
Why are you bringing moral judgement of people here? Even if poor people are guilt of their own poverty (they aren’t) like you are implying, it doesn’t change they are formally, but not really free. Marx description stills holds up.
I can’t debate morality about an idea from a philosopher? What has the world come to?
If I tie myself to a pole I’m also not free. Marx excellently diagnosed society yet continuously failed to treat a single one of its ailments. Also are you saying that we should deny people freedom to deny their own freedom seems like a paradox to me.
Your point assumes that everyone putting the same amount of effort gets to the same place. That there’s no golden youth and no kids have to work since the early age to support their parents. That everyone is given equal opportunities regardless of health, connections, and other factors. That industries are not exploitative to either workers or retail clients. Until that is true, there’s neither equity nor equality.
Besides, Marx does not object working hard and earning big. He objects robbing others of monetary value they produced to fill up your bank. At that point, you create opportunities for yourself at the expense of someone else, which is antithetical to equality. Or, to frame it in your wording, someone else makes an effort, and you get the money. Or, more commonly, vice versa.
We live in a society with a lot of equality almost anyone smart enough can work hard enough to get themselves out of almost any situation.
That really depends on where you live, your health and possibly several points about your parents. Millions and millions of people never get a chance to grab, never get an opportunity to pursue.
It is entirely within your choice to live under a bridge.
Lots of people don’t have any better options than to live under a bridge, despite being in an area where that is illegal and not a real option.
I live in the first world nation of Australia where I get free healthcare and practically free education.
U can make changes and make opportunities. Almost everyone has access to the internet or at least a library. If ur born someone that isn’t Australia then perhaps try unfucking whatever place you live my ancestors threatened a king to get rights under the magna carta then build the greatest empire this planet has ever seen. Nothing is stopping the bridge dwellers from doing the same except the motivation to do so.
Austrália
A nation built on stolen land where the better predictor of your class is is you are descendants from the settlers or from tha natives.
Nothing is stopping…
Except the inequal distribution of aducational and work opportunities, that assure the intergenerational inequality reproduction.
a concerned note:
Your comment about some people having fought for rights and others not is borderline racist. With precious comments about Darwin, it’s a red flag.
All people fight. Some fights are smashed with unimaginable violence. We are watching a live genocide in Gaza to prove this point. Oceania colonization is built upon a genocide. I’m not assuming you have conscience of how disturbing these comments are for a person like me, in South America, where all attempts to built a decent society where meet with USA interventions. Try to think in more broad terms, not only based on your experience, but trying to encompass the multiple experiences in the world.
A nation built on stolen land where the better predictor of your class is is you are descendants from the settlers or from tha natives.
Does it matter how many times the land was stolen? Cos all of Europe has been stolen by the rest if Europe hundreds of times. Or in Europe do u just call it losing a war? By ur logic I want my Lordship title and land in Prussia back.
Except the inequal distribution of aducational and work opportunities, that assure the intergenerational inequality reproduction.
Australia has very good public education many public schools rank at or near the top of year12 results. Any citizen granted (gives adequate grades) a loan by the government to go to university (which u pay jack shit for cos its just part of the tax system and maxes out at 10%). Ohh and we noe have free Tafe (trades work education). Work opportunities come from the education its highly illegal and well policed to ensure that workplaces don’t discriminate based on race, sex, sexual orientation etc etc. Australia has some of the most extreme wealth mobility in the world. Every word u just stated was comolete bullshit.
Your comment about some people having fought for rights and others not is borderline racist. With precious comments about Darwin, it’s a red flag.
How is it racist are you saying that certain racial groups are incapable of such things? That’s racist as shit my dude. I’m pretty sure I remember history talking about the black Americans successfully fighting for their rights or did u miss that lesson?
My comments about Darwin have nothing to do with race and where purely about intelligence. Your insinuation that this is about race is highly racist in itself.
All people fight. Some fights are smashed with unimaginable violence.
Yeah that’s how fighting works ether u have more violence and u win or u don’t and u lose.
We are watching a live genocide in Gaza to prove this point.
Due to Australia censorship laws I can’t comment anything about Israels actions.
Oceania colonization is built upon a genocide.
Same as when the Vikings invaded the British isles? Or when the Romans tried to crush the Germanic tribes. It took my ancestors 800years of oppression to topple the Roman empire but in the end we won and Rome fell.
I’m not assuming you have conscience of how disturbing these comments are for a person like me, in South America, where all attempts to built a decent society where meet with USA interventions.
I don’t bring emotions into discussions it distracts from rationality and leads to poor decision making often resulting in the aforementioned case known as losing.
Try to think in more broad terms, not only based on your experience, but trying to encompass the multiple experiences in the world.
Its not my job to unfuck everyone else’s countries. U want me to come to some country and make it like Australia? That can be done but turns out this practice tends to be called colonisation and u don’t seem to be a fan. My experience is of a prosperous first world nation that is prosperous and first world precisely because of the actions you are fighting against. The options are either unfuck ur own nation by urself or get colonised and have someone unfuck it for you. Insert something something having and/or eating cake.
When capitalism ends and we all finally revolt, we will be truly free.
The USA you’re free to do whatever you like as long as it’s these few specific things we believe are economically beneficial to the leaders but not you.
Slavery is not being denied the ability to earn wages.
Slavery is being denied the ability to save.
Everyone here should remember the story of Damocles. One of the things I enjoy about being poor is that I have nothing for people to steal. I don’t worry about muggings, carjackings, home invasions, kidnapping. When you have money, a line starts to form to take it from you.
The economy is designed to keep you locked into working for the rest of your life under stress. Freedom is only given to capitalists because that’s how the system is designed.
One loophole is stealing.
I sold drugs, that was real freedom.
Unironically what natives of the Great Lakes region have been saying about the “civilized” western way of life for centuries.
You have stumbled onto one of the most fundamental criticisms of modern capitalism, freedom & plenty for the few. It’s better than a hereditary feudal system in that upward class mobility isn’t categorically forbidden, but the reality for the vast majority of people is that actually moving up is not possible because the game is still rigged to produce almost exactly the same results as the old system.
