as an american, this doesn’t directly affect me, but I am concerned that by the time I can afford to buy a good high power ebike, they might not exist anymore. I’d like it to not take all day just to cross town.
I agree with the idea that a better solution is to just apply a speed limit to bike lanes.
It’ll exist, but you’ll need a motorcycle license to drive it, and it’ll be only on the street.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am once again asking the question: Why don’t cars have built-in speed regulators?
There’s constant chatter about the potential risks associated with the rise in e-bikes, but little to no mention of regulating the existing menace. You want to talk about excessive power? Look no further.
Governors presumably set to the speed limit?
There are places in the US with posted 85mph speed limits on the freeways.
Is that where we are setting them?
Not that I don’t agree with you, but to be fair, cars do require a license, they have to be registered and reguraly checked, which is not the case for a bike. In my opinion the failure here is that those should not be allowed for sale as bikes. Those are motocycle in all but name.
In Norway e-bikes are extremely strictly regulated: They need to have a power output of 250 W or less, motor output has to be linked to your pedaling movements, and the motor has to shut off completely when you reach 25 km/h. Anything more than that and you need to register it as a scooter/motorcycle. At which point you need a drivers licence, insurance, and can no longer ride it on bike paths. I was under the impression that this was an EU requirement. But maybe S-Pedelecs are treated like normal bicycles in the rest of Europe?
It’s the same in the EU but as with cars, the power can be electronically limited, so the user can remove the limitation with some limited tinkering. So you end up with and electric motorbike, and there is no regular check or registration. I have also never Heard of any form of control about this. Still better than letting people buy cars that can go 250kmh and trusting them with it, but at least you can track car owners.
But maybe S-Pedelecs are treated like normal bicycles in the rest of Europe?
No, it’s exactly like you’ve described the situation in Norway.
It’s even harder with cars: Why are cars even allowed to go 240km/h? Yeah, there is the german autobahn, but there’s no reason why a car which is registered in France should be able to go faster than the french max motorway speed limit. There is also no reason to allow cars to be able to go from 0 to 100 in x seconds. There is no use case for that, even if you try to merge into a motorway or overtake somewhere.
The drive from France to the nearest German motorway without a speed limit isn’t that far, though.
You can also do track days and such, but I agree with you they don’t need to be that quick
Actually, the speed should be a bit over the speed limit. What if you are driving the speed limit, but suddenly someone almost hits you? You gotta drive a bit faster.
There’s a requirement to electronically limit the speed of all new road vehicles sold in the EU since 2024. The only problem is the vast difference in highway speeds within the Schengen area.
This one seems fairly obvious to me. People regard their cars as they would their homes and computers: personal space. They don’t like their personal space being regulated, even if they don’t intend to break the law. An analogy might be monitoring one’s internet traffic. Sure, I don’t intend to break any laws, but I still don’t like it. Any politician wading into this fight is going to get their asses handed to them in the next election.
Going in a car, you necessarily interact with others, what you do and how you do it clearly affects their safety, their personal space and you can even easily kill them with a single wrong movement of one hand or one foot.
That’s by definition clearly the realm where your personal freedom ends - the fundamental rights of others give it limits. And this is good so.
Going on a computer with internet access gives one the ability to exact enormous damage on the world at exponentially higher scale than anything one could do in a car. Should all computer use be actively monitored?
Totally agree with you. Would like to add that we should also limit the noise that cars and motorcycles make. Many places have noise regulations but they are rarely enforced
In the EU all new cars sold after June 2024 must now have Intelligent Speed Assist: https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge/media-and-press/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across
Thank you for sharing, that was an interesting read. I hadn’t heard of this before.
The first two feedback options do not directly intervene but only provide warnings (first optic and if no response from the driver, a delayed acoustic/vibrating warning), which have to be as short as possible in duration to avoid potential annoyance of the driver.
This part was particularly amusing.
And to put the power value of 800 Watt in relation: An average human is unlikely to go with more than 150 Watt over a sustained period. If you put this into this web computer:
http://kreuzotter.de/deutsch/speed.htm
http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
you get a speed of 27 km/h for a road bike. If you put 800 Watt in for such a bike, you get a speed of 49 km/h (which in Germany is the general inside-village speed limit which is anachronistically high, and is slowly being replaced by 30 km/h where you have bicycles, pedestrisns, or schools).
That also means that an e-bike with 800 Watt power is actually a light motorcycle, with all the associated risks.
European attitudes towards vehicle speed stun me. 30mph is fast?! Guess the difference is that American streets are built for cars; straighter, wider and wider open on the sides. Even if you meander off a residential street, all you’re going to hit is a mailbox. That open space also gives pedestrians and bikers ample room to get out of Dodge.
LOL, 800 Watt power would be equivalent to a 49cc moped around here. Americans would laugh if anyone called that a “light motorcycle”.
European attitudes towards vehicle speed stun me. 30mph is fast?!
In the city yes, we have places that are older than your country, build when car were not even an idea. It is a necessity.
Guess the difference is that American streets are built for cars; straighter, wider and wider open on the sides. Even if you meander off a residential street, all you’re going to hit is a mailbox. That open space also gives pedestrians and bikers ample room to get out of Dodge.
Wait, European street are built for car too, just only were is possible. We don’t destroy something old and valuable just to make room for the last Dodge.
LOL, 800 Watt power would be equivalent to a 49cc moped around here. Americans would laugh if anyone called that a “light motorcycle”.
Here a 49cc scooter is the entry point for riding a motorcyle and you can do it at 14 years old. It would make no sense to allow a 13 years old to be able to drive an ebike more powerfull than a scooter he cannot yet drive.
Because it is. There are plenty of single lane, shoulder less roads in the US with a driveway every 1000 ft with a limit of 40-45 mph and it’s ridiculously fast.
Highway speeds in Europe are 80mph, 45-55-70mph for normal roads and 30mph for town centers.
Of course not everybody keeps the speed limit, which may be variably enforced.
30mph is FAST for a bike, especially when you consider that they often travel through pedestrian areas.
Yeah I am, too, always astounded about posts like https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/22333342 or https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/top/?sort=top&t=month .
Then again, if a car with 200’000 Watts of power rolls through the same 30 km/h zone no one cares. So why should we care about bicycles?
Because we don’t fall for whataboutism?
It’s no question that car speeds in cities are going down - and need to go down for safety. And that’s no reason at all to make e-bikes significantly faster and make things less safe.
And by the way: Further reducing the speed limits for cars, and making more space for normal bikes, including dedicated bike roads, would achieve exactly what most people which argue for higher e-bike speed limits presumably want: You get much faster to your destination. Again, the European bicycle capitals like Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Paris show how it is done.
Wrong. More watts doesn’t mean faster. Bosch eBikes go up to 750W but are locked at 25km/h. The power is used for uphill climbing ability and responsiveness to leg torque input.
His point also stands. My car has 180.000 Watts and can easily go over 250km/h. Why isn’t it banned?Because you need a driver’s licence for that car, but not an E-Bike. And you can’t use that car on segregated green lanes in cities amidst other cyclists and pedestrians.
Incorrect. A licence, registration, and insurance is required for electrically assisted bicycles capable of exceeding 25 km/h.
And such an s-pedelec, by law, is no bicicle and thus, generally not allowed on dedicated bike lanes. So what’s your point?
(Additionally, by e-bike they probably mean a 25 km/h limited pedelec, which is called E-Bike in German law.)
I was responding to the requirement of a licence for a car, if you read the comment chain
Exactly my point. The power of the vehicle is not relevant because the speed limit always applies.
I’d rather have a 1kW bicycle at 30 km/h than a 200kW car at the same speed.
Are you trolling?
From the interview:
The whole industry is worried, but it’s not about one company. With motors like these, we are moving further and further away from bicycles, and as an industry, we risk e-bikes being regulated by the EU. So far, e-bikes have been treated the same as bicycles in the EU. And we as the ZIV want to protect this status. To achieve this, we need to clarify the gray areas in regulation that define what is and what is not a bicycle. And two values are important here: performance and the ratio between rider power and motor power.
In this respect, DJI achieves values with the Avinox motor with 1000 watts and 800 percent muscle gain that did not exist before.
As I said, it’s not just about one specific brand. It’s about everyone pushing the performance values upwards. And the EU could look at this and ask: What are you actually doing here with your Newton meter power assistance factor race? Unlike the e-bike, the S-pedelec with a cut-off speed of 45 km/h is considered a moped in the L1 class and is subject to type approval. The type approval defines the assistance factor 4 for the S-pedelec.
And now the e-bike manufacturers are launching e-bikes that do not require type approval with a factor of 8 on the market.
Note that there is some confusing terminology: “eBike” as a common (but wrong) term means a bicycle with assistance electric power which is limited to 25 km/h in speed. The proper term for this is “Pedelec”. In difference to this, “S-Pedelec” means a light motorcycle which in Germany can go with up to 45 km/h, needs insurance, license plate, strict technical certification, helmet - and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.
> and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.In town, but outside it’s allowed unless is explicitly forbidden.In Germany, that’s not the case. What’s frequently allowed outside villages (but need explicit permission!) are mofas which are gas-powered vehicles which have a max speed of 25 km/h. The Netherlands are more permissive here but they do have far, far better cycleways.
is “mofa” short for “Motor-Fahrrad”? i’ve seen the term a few times in the past few days but never before that. in that case they are what i would know as a “klass II moped”, but here that category also includes pedelecs.
love the pseudo-homologated rules for eu motor vehicles.
Yes. But unlike in Sweden, where “klass II mopeds” don’t need an insurance nor a drivig permit , in Germany they do in general (‘mofa test certificate’, “Mofa-Prüfbescheinigung”, i.e. you need to take 6×90 minutes theory lessons and a 90 minute driving lesson and pass a theoretical test, not a practical test like for a usual driving licence/permit). Only normal pedelecs (those with 25 km/h limit, not s-pedelecs) are exempt and are treated as usual bikes and thus, don’t need any insurance nor driving permit.
Like in Sweden, S-pedelecs in Germany are treated equal to Mopeds (klass I moped) and thus, require the AM drivers licence and an insurance.
is “mofa” short for “Motor-Fahrrad”?
yep.
Sorry, I’ve misunderstood.
Yet, there may be bike lanes, especially fast tracks, where S-pedelecs are explicitly allowed.
https://wattmoves.de/s-pedelecs-endlich-auf-radwegen-hier-ist-es-erlaubt/213234/
AfaIk, Mofas don’t need explicit permission on bike lanes out of town (§ 2 Abs. 4 StVO), but are explicitly prohibited sometimes *“keine Mofas”.
In town, the use of bike lanes with Mofas or pedelecs “E-Bikes” may be permitted if explicitly stated with an extra sign.
Which is actually a really crap regulation as each city has to check all of their bicycle paths and allow S-Pedelecs. Which means that there are many cities which are simply not doing that.
Many/most urban city paths in Germany are already too crowded for S-Pedelecs which go at 45 km/h.
For example, you would need to be able to safely overtake a slower bicycle which on most German bike lanes is not safely possible. And of course, it is a different thing for Netherlands bike infrastructure - but you also have much denser bike traffic there.
The problem here is, that at least in Germany S-Pedelecs are not allowed on bicycle paths at all. Which makes city driving a nightmare and is also preventing S-Pedelecs on many other paths. Around here there are many paths through nature reserves and woodland, where it totally makes sense that motorcycles are banned, but since S-Pedelecs fall into that category, you are screwed.
A regulation like “feel free to drive there, but do not even think about going faster than 25km/h” could work.
The regulation is more ar less only intended for high speed tracks ("Radschnellwege") where it is sometimes suitable to allow 45 km/h fast bikes or bike streets (“Fahrradstraßen”) where the s-pelelecs then would have to obey to the 30 km/h limit, not for each and every small narrow bike lane.
Related podcast: Why I’m Ebike-pilled (with American Fietser) - YouTube (The Urbanist Agenda Podcast). They get a bit into the problem of producers trying to sell more “pseudo-motorcycle” vehicles and how the arms race and regulation race work out.
Is there a text version available? I don’t have all day.
Here’s a non-YouTube version: https://podscan.fm/podcasts/the-urbanist-agenda/episodes/why-im-ebike-pilled-with-american-fietser it may have a nicer transcript (probably automatic), but I think you need an account to read it all.
There’s the official YouTube auto-generated transcript, but I’m not pasting that here.
I have listened to this episode as well, it’s good
What’s fascinating for me is that Copenhagen is arguably the most bike-friendly city in Europe, and probably in the world - and very few people use e-bikes there! Why is this? Can somebody who lives there explain why?
I live in Copenhagen. We have plenty. They’re relatively expensive though, so obviously most bikes are not (yet) ebikes. We are also experiencing a bike theft epidemic, which discourages people from buying expensive bikes. Another factor is the country is flat as a pancake and the weather is rarely hot. It’s much easier to get to work without working up a sweat on a regular bike. In fact, people often relish the ability to get some exercise in the morning and evening. Lastly, Copenhagen isn’t very big. We don’t have the same crazy distances seen in American cities.
Copenhagener here. People do use eBikes in Copenhagen, but I guess it depends on what you consider “very few”. My guesstimate would be that around one in five bikes is electric. As to why not more bikes are electric, Copenhagen - and Denmark in general - is very flat, so eBikes are more so used for:
- long distances (say, people who live ~20 km from work but still want to bike there)
- cargo/passenger bikes
- letting people bike who otherwise wouldn’t physically be able to
You can get a well-working used bike for very cheap. New e-bikes tend to be pricey, used e bikes are often still pricey or come with caveats.
Caveats such as “they’ll get stolen and require more money to replace”
Amsterdam would like a word.
In many surveys on bike usage and bike friendlyness, Amsterdam is a strong second after Copenhagen.
LIES! They just don’t want us to have electric motorcycles.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
We actually need to end the “gig worker” business model where they’re racing around all day and reckless driving translates to more money.
The same way that limiting the work hours of truck drivers protects them and others. Without these restrictions, companies would simply demand even longer hours for less money.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day?
Fine by me, just say them to obtain a driver’s license and insurance for a scooter, since basicaly it is what they would drive. Or drop the need of the license for the scooters and light bike.
The point is that a ebike with a throttles is basically a scooter (or bike) and then it is a different things, with differnt rules.
But is there really a fundamental difference? If I build a throttle on my bicycle, it still has the same breaks, the same lights, the same driver, the same max speed. The only difference is that I do not have to pedal, everything else is exactly the same. There are countries where it is totally legal to do this and others where you get quite harsh fines. There is no reason for it to be a different thing.
But is there really a fundamental difference?
I would point out that an ebike with a throttle are more like this one (sorry, only find in Italian) than a normal bicycle from a road code point of view.
Is this what we call “Mofa” in Germany? What are the rules for it?
The same used for a scooter since it was a scooter. But it is no longer produced :-(
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation.
Do you know that there is a reason for the regulations on light motorcycles, mopeds, mofas, Vespas, scooters and however you name them? It’s the number of fatal traffic accidents. And yes, there are probably over two dozens of these motorized vehicle classes which originally started with the idea of an “bicycle with a bit of motor” such as mopeds and mofas.
I really can’t see this in the traffic accident statistics. Yes, there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, but if you look deeper into them, those are in most cases “real” motorcycles and not those slower variants. And if you take a look at those eScooters, most accidents here are people driving those rental scooters while drunk. That’s a problem, but that’s also a problem you won’t solve by regulating the dude going to the train station in the morning.
It is very clear from statistics of traffic accidents between cars and pedestrians that risk of lethal injuries rises sharply with speed, even at speeds of 30 km/h. It does not make a difference whether a car crashes with 30 km\h into you, or you crash with 30 km/h into a car.
It is also very clear that riding light motorcycles is far more risky than riding a bike.
Actually it does make a difference, as cynetic energy is proportionnal to mass, so 30kmh car is much more dangerous than a 30kmh bike. Though it does not invalidate your point
No, that’s not the case. What’s relevant, especially with a difference of mass so large, is the relative speed of the two objects, which is 30 km/h.
We want to reduce traffic and oil consumption and can’t figure why people buy larger vehicles in North America?
number of fatal traffic accidents
Yeah, the issue isn’t the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc…
So dude is right, a whole class of vehicle is being being held back by regulation, and the premise/reason is ridiculous for a society that would like to see less cars on the road.
Bud, the point isn’t simply removing cars, it’s about having something better, which includes safer.
If your motor-vehicle endangers people, such as by vroooooming in a bike line where people are pedaling at average speeds, you’re the threat, you’re the car.
I love that viewpoint of American tech bros that “regulation baaad!”. Are you aware that the living standard in the EU is in many measures much better than in the US? To start with, everyone has health insurance here while US has some Third-World reality…
Yeah, the issue isn’t the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc.
A thing which has a motor and where the human delivers less than 30% of the power at max speed is a light motorcycle. The reason for that is with more power you need a heavier battery and a much heavier frame with better brakes. You need a solid helmet which again makes it impractical to pedal at power because it becomes hot. At 40 km/h, it becomes to chill in the winter and at 45 km/h or so, you really need protective clothing because otherwise in a fall, the asfalt will strip your skin off. At that point it is very clearly becoming a motorcycle. You have lost thr technical sweet spot of a bicycle at that point. There have been many attempts to blur that line (guess what the name “Mofa” comes from or “Moped” or why these things have pedals which nobody uses).
And we have motor-powered bikes since a long time - over 75 years -, and regulations have evolved out of need. Traditinally, the motor was a combustion engine - but that’s the only difference and it is totally irrelevant for traffic safety.
and regulations have evolved out of need
That’s not totally correct. Here in Germany we have so called “Mofas” which translates to “motorized bicycle”. Those are different from eBikes and heavily regulated. There are age limits, drivers licence, insurance requirements, regulations where you are allowed to drive and so on. And yes, they are also restricted to 25km/h. Why are there this heavy regulations which are not in place for our pedelecs? The reason is plain racism in combination with “old people hate young people”. Those Mofas were popular with young migrant workers back in the 50s and 60s. And therefore they were regulated as fuck. You will see stuff like this with modern eScooters where the whole class will be restricted because they are popular with younger people.
What I wanted to say was exactly this: There is a rule in place that basically created artificial differences between the same thing. A 25km/h vehicle with a motor and pedals is heavily restricted, another one is totally free. Which makes no sense.
Those Mofas were popular with young migrant workers back in the 50s and 60s. And therefore they were regulated as fuck.
I don’t believe that. I was going to secondary school in Germany in the late seventies / early eighties and they were very popular with white middle class teenagers and apprentices younger than 18 years old. And they were regulated because of tons of serious accidents. Migrant workers would not earn very well and they would use a bike. Young students or workers would much more likely light motorcycles - in the seventies, the motorcycle industry worked very hard to both make them more affordable, and to work around regulations for motor bikes which had much higher safety requirements.
In addition, in 1965 mofas where exempted from requiring a drivers licence. Before, as of 1960, a mofa was considedered a moped and did require a proper class 5 (today: class AM) drivers license.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Then they could simply buy a small bike, with all the attached rules, like driver’s license and so on.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
Rules are imposed as consequences.
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros. There are also age limits in place. So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h? I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
The scooter license is included with the car’s license, and scooters can go up to 45 kph. An e-bike with a throttle could be classified as a scooter (or even a Mofa, which is essentially what it is anyway).
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros.
Damn, and I was thinking that in Italy licences are expensive…
So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or “simply buy a small bike” with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The problem is that this way you would have a young person on what is basically a bike but without even the smallest knowlegde of how to behave on a public road.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h?
Probably they follow different rules to be approved to be on the street.
I’m not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
This way you basically made out a scooter out of your bike, that is what the regulation probably want to avoid.
And that is exactly the point: The regulation doesn’t make any sense. It is the same vehicle. Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement. It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
There are a lot of countries where throttles on eBikes are legal and they do not have much problems either. So yeah, there might be a big legal difference, but that is totally arbitrary and we could do better.
It’s not suddenly a scooter, it’s the same vehicle.
Not according to the road code, evidentely
Yeah and I’m criticizing the road code.
Me pedalling doesn’t bring any safety improvement.
It does, as stopping your bike from 25 km/h will occur more often if no pedaling is required and thus, the brakes (or the rim) may overheat. Many pedelecs (“E-Bikes”) do still have rim brakes or their disc brakes have smaller dimensions than required for proper e-bike with throttle.
Not really - I’m going 25km/h if I’m pedaling and I would go 25km/h with a throttle. And bike manufacturers fitting underpowered brakes on eBikes is an issue for another regulation?
Not really - I’m going 25km/h if I’m pedaling and I would go 25km/h with a throttle.
And how many time you reach 25 km/h while pedaling and how many time you reach 25 km/h with a throttle ?
And bike manufacturers fitting underpowered brakes on eBikes is an issue for another regulation?
If they become a danger to the others then yes.
