It kills me that this was initially shoved out there as a safe alternative to smoking. No actually research, just trust us bro. And of course all this starts coming out and some people are still of the opinion that its safe due to the initial marketing push. Money at all costs, fuck capitalism.
Relatively safe != safe, it just means more safe than the thing being compared to. It’s likely still a big improvement over smoking.
Also let’s remember how it was originally marketed: You start with the dose that matches your smoking habit, 18 or 24mg of nicotine per bottle, and then work your way towards 0%, and then you can just give it up. It’s how I quit smoking. I am pretty sure that few years of vaping was safer for me than the next 40 (well probably a lot less) of smoking would be.
Yeah, and the flavours helped because it wasn’t as satisfying as cigarettes but you could have fun flavours to at least make it enjoyable and interesting enough to not just want a cigarette instead (or in addition).
Yesterday was 4 weeks without nicotine for me.
Dude congrats!! You’re past the worst of it, in my opinion. If you relapse, you relapse, but now you know what you’re capable of. You got this!
Congratulations, that’s a great accomplishment! Hopefully you are able to hit 4 months, then 4 years, then 4 decades.
Idk man seems obvious to me.
how so? isn’t it the smoke that’s bad?
Lungs are simply not made for absorption of substances. The tissues are very delicate and are there for the exchange of gases. Everything else is a pollution.
I suspect it’s what got mixed in the nicotine. It is probably impossible economically to have a pure nicotine probably dangerous even. I haven’t read the article to be fair.
I read it. It’s not compelling.
The first cited research regarding DNA damage is a dead link. It says “error: this is not a published article” or something like that.
The second cited research is an abstract claiming that 20% of mice developed lung cancer after being exposed to vape smoke for 9 weeks. The methodology is blocked behind a paywall, but I’m betting they concentrated trace components and blasted mice with it for two months straight. This isn’t very informative; if I concentrated the carcinogens found in normal city air, I could probably achieve a higher kill rate.
A better example of this strategy would be if I blasted mice with extremely high intensity UV radiation to prove that the sun was dangerous. Sure, 90% of mice would quickly get skin cancer, but it doesn’t tell us how harmful the sun is in real scenarios. Blasting an animal with a lifetime worth of sun in an hour is more dangerous than gradual exposure.
Tobacco the plant has a host of carcinogens. No matter where you put tobacco -mouth, lungs, bladder, nose, ass, wherever-it causes cancer. The article’s claim that nicotine causes lung cancer but nicotine gum is safe is pretty ridiculous.
Source: I’m a chemist. Part of my schooling was making mundane results appear as sensational as possible.
I suspect it has to do with repeated inhalation of something that is not air, but I’m not a doctor nor a scientist so this is purely vibes
this just in: inhaling cancerous chemicals causes cancer. More at 10
The cancerous chemical company said this one wasn’t proven to cause cancer. Who was I supposed to believe?
Besides, without cancerous smoke packets, I’d still be using cancerous smoke sticks. Are you saying I should still be using the sticks? You freak. Those things cause cancer!
It’s so silly that people are rushing to defend vaping here. Just admit that inhaling shit into your lungs isn’t good for you and that the rich people profiting off your addiction want to keep up the charade as long as possible. Just admit, like all people who smoke cigarettes do, that it’s bad for you and that you’ll continue doing it.
I drank diet sodas for years, but I avoided defending it even though the evidence was inconclusive. I know the corporate goons want it to be perceived as healthy, so I don’t want to play into their plans regardless of how convenient it is for me. Our addictions aren’t healthy, and we need to own up to that even if we aren’t strong enough to resist them.
Just admit, like all people who smoke cigarettes do, that it’s bad for you
I still know people who insist smoking isn’t bad for you. Typically with some kind of “Actually, oranges and swimming pools kill more people than cigarettes do, so it’s no big deal” rejoinder. It’s genuinely maddening.
I’ll always be thankful that vaping got me off tobacco, and eventually nicotine too. But there’s an abyssal gulf between the self assembled, diy vape and self mixed liquid that vaping started at, and the white ox grade addiction pods that vaping has become.
There’s absolutely no reason to have the default strength be 50mg/mL, unless optimising for addiction without quite hitting a poisonous dose.
Which fricking vape pod has 50mg/mL? That’s even worse than the strongest cigarettes. I was on 3-5mg/mL and eventually weaned off completely. Good god, 50mg would be awful!
The gas station disposable pods are like that. That wah they can delivers lot of drug with little power consumption
There’s also dry herb vapes, which while not innocent by any means, are likely better than anything with ejuice
I assume cannabis is the dry herb in the dry herb vape and not tobacco. In which case, consumers don’t typically hit that vape compulsively every 5 minutes and there’s a vast difference in volume of inhaled vapor.
The article is about nicotine vapes, not weed.
As long as you are low temp vaping weed, dry herb vapes don’t emit any meaningful amount of carcinogens till you start getting above 180C. Inhaling anything besides air isn’t great but as far I’m aware (I’m not super educated on the matter) low temp dry herb weed vapes are less harmful than the nasty disposal nic vapes everyone’s addicted too.
yeah and no cotton wick or coils to burn out when you run out of juice / clog / whatever, which I believe is part of the reason nicotine vapes can release heavy metals / carcinogens.
Just admit, like all people who smoke cigarettes do, that it’s bad for you and that you’ll continue doing it.
I don’t know why people can’t just do this. I drink — sometimes like a fish — and I know it’s not good for me and likely will take years off of my life. But I like it. So oh fucking well.
Had a diet soda after work yesterday. Just sat down right now after getting home from work and am craving one intensely.
There is no way something so yummy and habit forming is consequence-free.
Idk man, liking diet soda is kinda weird.
Right? There’s nothing good about synthetic sweetener. Why not go with the “devil you know” (sugar) which actually tastes better? I don’t get it
Can’t speak for the poster above, but my pancreas decided a couple decades ago to stop producing insulin. So, the “devil I know” will turn my blood into pancake syrup in short order if I’m not careful.
John Kellogg salivating in his grave.
Good, take me from this planet faster
Gee who could have guessed that inhaling dubious chemicals causes lung problems.
Vapes enjoyed a fuckton of marketing from people proudly proclaiming “There is no proof that these new things cause cancer!” Followed by a decade of company funded “Nuh-uh!” ambiguous refutations and lobbying campaigns to kill any kind of contrary studies.
Like, I get the impulse to say “No duh”. But I doubt you’re listening to a congo line of Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson ad men telling you that vaping is the safest, bestest, most liberating way to consume your drug of choice.
I’ma be so annoyed if there are meaningful second hand vaping effects -_-
I would be shocked if there are not, anywhere someone vapes nicotine regularly gets coated in a sort of film, which is what you would be inhaling second hand…
it’s not that hard to quit smoking if you stop drinking
I mean, no shit it will, but good on the Aussie government to fund the study so that it’s all already proven. It’s fucking impossible to debate some people without linking to studies like you’re defending a Goddamned fucking doctoral thesis.
Showing evidence doesn’t even work generally. Psychology doesn’t work that way sadly.
- on average
analysed reviews of evidence from animal studies,
I seriously doubt that, because the bases in e-juice were studied thoroughly in the 50’s with no such evidence.
And nicotine has obviously also been studied thoroughly, and the nicotine is not considered a major carcinogen in cigarettes, it’s mostly compounds created by the burning of the paper and tobacco that cause cancer that is the actual SMOKE in smoking, which vapes do not have, unless the vape is seriously overheated.I bet that this study is flawed, if it truly shows indication of cancerous effects, I bet it’s because they overheat the e-juice, which has the same effect as burning fat on a frying pan. And with the e-juice taste horribly.
Either that or they’ve used impure products, and not the pharmaceutical quality products that dominate the industry.
If you are a vaper, make sure the nicotine and base juice are both pharmaceutical quality.However, the review included case reports from dentists who noticed oral cancer in people who had only vaped and who had never smoked.
This is partially based on self reporting, which is the least reliable form of study there is.
Also I’ve never heard such warnings from dentists?Unfortunately with these kinds of studies, we have to consider they can either be honestly flawed, but worse than that the studies can be dishonest to attract funding.
I bet it’s because they overheat the e-juice
I remember there being a study years ago where they even went so far as to heat it until the wicking material (cotton iirc) started to burn then claimed vapes contain the chemicals that were created by the combustion (if you let your vape go dry or you hold the button way too long it’s disgusting, nobody would vape like that all the time). The cigarette industry has no morals and will fund anyone who will publish their dodgy “research”.
That was the formaldehyde study, although the study that found VG broke down into Dihydroxyacetone did the same thing. Their starting wattage was the max recommended for the coil they used, and that coil was a CE4 style cart.
It’s not only the cigarette industry it’s also the pharmaceutical industry.
When I vaped (I quit 5 years ago) we were generally warned against using cotton, Silica was by far the most popular when I quit smoking and switched to vaping around 15 years ago. Silica was generally considered more safe.Iirc the formaldehyde study used silica wicks, they just fired the carts for 90 seconds.
90 seconds, holy shit. Did they burn the lab down?
Yes I remember such a study too, machine vaping in a room with no people, I can’t even begin to imagine the stink it must have caused.
Yet another obviously extremely incompetent or dishonest study. Probably the latter IMO.
It is quite amusing to me the level of copium that I read in comments whenever negative health impacts of vaping are pointed out.
Have all the flavor additives that they add to these vape juices been studied on the impacts on the lungs since the 50s to support your “doubt”? Did the studies on PG’s effect on the lungs since the 50s include frequency of use and exposure to the lungs that is consistent with daily use vaping we see today?
You’re evaluating results of the study by assuming that the only thing that can cause oral and lung cancers are inhaling smoke. Which is incredibly flawed thinking.
It could be that perhaps…just maybe…that inhaling anything other than clean air on a consistent basis increases someone’s chances of developing cancer. Crazy thought, I know.
Sure it is likely better than smoking. But anyone that deludes themselves into thinking that their pina colada vape they inhale into their lungs multiple times an hour is healthy and can’t possibly cause any negative health issues is uhhh…not very bright.
Have all the flavor additives that they add to these vape juices been studied
Argument from ignorance, they have all been tested to be generally safe, and people that work with them all day long in industries and kitchens are exposed to the vapors too.
I’m sceptical of this study too, but a “generally recognized as safe” (GRAS) designation is not meaningful in the context of long term health effects.
It basically means that we know what the chemical is and that we’re pretty sure it won’t kill you or even make the average person sick, at least not right away. It does not mean the chemical won’t harm someone at any dose, frequency, time scale, ROA, etc.
GRAS designation for a novel chemical (in the US) is an easy hurdle to clear, but the fact that a chemical even has it means more study is needed.
Well then IDK what I should call a compound that is actually considered generally safe, as in something that has been used for decades with no known problems.
I wouldn’t count on the health of those employees being respected either.
They have unions and doctors, so if a problem is really there it will surface.
afaik the bases of e-juice were studied for ingestion, not inhalation.
edit: i was thinking of diacetyl which is sometimes used as a flavoring additive and caused a bunch of lung injury in the early days of microwave popcorn manufacturing. While looking through these I stumbled upon vitamin e acetate (used as a condensing agent in vape products) and it sounds none to good for you either. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6952050/
Then you know wrong, they were studied thoroughly for inhalation too, and were approved and used in kindergartens to prevent respiratory diseases. They are still used in asthma inhalers, and in stage fog machines in rooms crammed with people.
None of the branches that use these compounds very heavily have had problems, and they are still used.The fact that you are so heavily upvoted just shows that people here are extremely ignorant about the issue, but still feel their ignorant opinion has value.
albuterol inhalers use saline solution as a carrier.
Each milliliter of albuterol sulfate inhalation solution 0.083% contains 0.83 mg of albuterol (as 1 mg of albuterol sulfate) in an isotonic, sterile, aqueous solution containing sodium chloride; sulfuric acid is used to adjust the pH to between 3 and 5. Albuterol sulfate inhalation solution 0.083% contains no sulfiting agents or preservatives.
albuterol inhalers use saline solution as a carrier.
That sounds weird, that is in principle just salt water, and a vapor that is way harder to control. But just because an alternative exist, doesn’t mean other options are bad.
Actually the bases are safe. They were tested extensively for inhalation in like the 50s or 60s.
Nope, PolyEtheleneGlycol (PG) is the carrier in Ventolin inhalers. Glycerine (VG) is something the body knows how to handle because it’s the chemical backbone of triglyceride, the most common form of human fat. VG and PG are the usual bases in ejuice.
Valid point for the majority of flavours though (maybe 1-5% by volume), although mint is likely fine and used in some medical contexts and for some reason tobacco flavour is prescribed in Australia, probably because it’s disgusting.
Each milliliter of albuterol sulfate inhalation solution 0.083% contains 0.83 mg of albuterol (as 1 mg of albuterol sulfate) in an isotonic, sterile, aqueous solution containing sodium chloride; sulfuric acid is used to adjust the pH to between 3 and 5. Albuterol sulfate inhalation solution 0.083% contains no sulfiting agents or preservatives.
Seems like they just use pH-adjusted salt water for it? Been looking for more data but I’m having trouble finding anything that isn’t behind stupid paywalls.
Don’t forget the massive fog machines, that are allowed indoor in crowded rooms, because of how safe they are.
the dose makes the poison as they say.
Absolutely 100%, even water is toxic. If you drink 4 liters of it in a short span of time, you will die.
I vape and can tell you that degradation of the coil happens even without overheating the element or juice. Which means it’s possible for these particles to go into the body.
I vaped for 10 years, if you don’t change your coil/wig when it degrades enough to taste bad, you are an idiot.
IDK if you use sub ohm coils or other forms of extreme vaping, but coils don’t generally degrade, but they may build up gunk, which can be easily cleaned by burning it off.But to get the data some studies have shown, you need to REALLY burn the coil, which taste like burned plastic, or like smoking the filter on a cigarette.
It’s absolutely awful.There are many types of vaping, but none of them should make you use overheated coils, unless you make them yourself, and then you are doing it wrong.
Goddam I kind of miss the hobby side of it now. 🙁Yes I use sub ohm coils. But I think you are wrong and even degradation without overheating makes these particles come lose. Otherwise it’s like saying that microplastics are no problem for you because you don’t microwave food in plastic containers.
even degradation without overheating makes these particles come lose
Nope, those particles are not supposed to be generated except very slowly, and you are supposed to maintain your coil when you do sub ohm.
“Except very slowly”. You just make my point for me.
And even with perfect maintenance and low heat it still degrades. That’s just how heating stuff works.
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The dentist part makes zero sense…PG is antibacterial and antimicrobial, which we have known for decades now. This study like you said is %100 bullshit, and just like the “popcorn” lung study, probably burned the wicks and metals on the vapes with no solution at all.
Someone’s got an agenda here.
The popcorn lung thing is because of diacetyl, which creates a buttery flavor.
Nobody uses diacetyl flavoring anymore.
Correct but in that study they were literally burning the wicks and filaments by running the vape dry.
Even when I was vaping like 15+ years ago you couldn’t find liquid with diacetyl flavoring used. It was basically non-existent even then.
Yup! 100% correct. The replacement flavors all contain a GRAS (generally recognized as safe for human consumption) replacement chemical that, if overused, tastes like vomit barf… cuz it’s in barf! If used in the correct quantity though, it creates a nice creamy/buttery/smooth flavor. Thank you, CAP Vanilla Custard 2.0 bottle I’ve had for like a decade and should replace!
Both PG and VG are hydrophilic so they can dry out your mouth which can cause dental issues.
That’s one of the few legitimate risks of vaping, albeit a low one.
This comment is full of misinformation. I assume you aren’t intentionally trying to spread misinformation. I encourage you to do some research on this bcz most everything you’ve said is at best misleading, and at worst intentionally wrong.
I started vaping 15 years ago, and I have researched the issue intensively. So no this is not misinformation, you are the one that is uninformed. The number of obviously flawed studies on e-cigs is insane.
It is also funny how you completely fail to show anything wrong with my post, but just make a blanket statement without any real argument.You are awful defensive in the rest of this thread with people who are providing sources. Would sources even change your mind? Bcz i dont think they would.
What the fuck? What sources? I think you are imagining things.
Have you researched the issue recently. Because some of the stuff you said was stuff I read about when I started vaping like 10 years ago. Like the stuff about it being too hot. Its something I see repeated a lot by people who dont want to see reality.
Yes, a study, many years ago, did that. But did this study do that? You cant keep trotting that line out and expect it to stay relevant.
Ive stopped vaping as of last year, but it was obvious to me the flavour compounds were a complete unknown.
Yes, a study, many years ago,
If you think that was the only fake study you are wrong. There was also a study where they measured the formaldehyde using a test person, in a closed room.
Lo and behold they found formaldehyde, and the press spread the news like rabid dogs.
The problem was that we exhale formaldehyde naturally, and the level of formaldehyde measured was consistent with a person NOT vaping.But did this study do that?
Most probably, because as I state there have been numerous studies that show no formaldehyde. These fake studies are made to push an agenda.
Ive stopped vaping as of last year
Good for you, I also stopped about 5 years ago, something I was unable to without the e-cig.
it was obvious to me the flavour compounds were a complete unknown.
Not complete, they are used in professional kitchens and industries, where people have been exposed for many decades. The chemical nature is also known and is deemed safe.
You can also vape without flavor, which I did for about a year before quitting, the taste is actually quite nice IMO even without flavor.
But I must admit I can still miss the taste of a good RY4 despite I’m 100% off the nicotine.Can you not see how biased and untrustworthy you sound? You effectively admitted to not even reading this study.
There is no source to the study, the link doesn’t work.
Also even if I read the study, it is not a sure thing that their mistake is obvious, and I’ve seen dozens of studies that were done correctly that show there are no known carcinogens in the vapor of e-cigs.
Or rather the ones that are detected are way less than 1% of a cigarette, which means vaping similar to smoking 20 cigarettes per day, will expose you to the equivalent of 0.2 cigarette. The biggest number being the formaldehyde we exhale naturally.So please just piss off with you knee jerk ignorance.
I’ve studied the issue plenty, I don’t need to read yet another flawed study, I’ve seen plenty of those already.Here’s the link in the article, that you said you couldn’t find.
Look i see what you are doing. You half read a few studies 10 years ago now recent science is beneath you. Its obvious, and I want you to know its obvious.
Studies in the 50s also said that asbestos was a good material to insulate your house with.
Were those health studies?
You know the lung problem with asbestos is quite unique, and it may have been unknown back then. If buildings weren’t for people, asbestos is very safe regarding fires, and an excellent material in many ways. But it was already in the 60’s that we began to ban and remove that shit, exactly because it is harmful to your lungs.The bases in vaping have been used for instance for asthma inhalers for many many decades and is STILL used for that, and the pharmaceutical industry is pretty heavily regulated. It is also used as stage fog, in fog machines that spew enormous amounts into rooms full of people, with AFAIK no research showing any health problems, for the operators or the musicians or actors that are exposed to it every day.
But for some reason, when it’s an e-cig some people suddenly have a knee jerk reaction, and think whatever is inhaled in any way is unhealthy.
Your argument is basically whataboutism, and in that line you could ask yourself, what about the smell of making tea, surely that must be harmful too by your logic. All that tea vapor in the air that you inhale in closed rooms.Actually it has been shown that people that vape to quit smoking, recover lung functionality faster than any other way of quitting smoking.
So anyone that quit smoking could benefit from using vapes even if they are nicotine free, for a few months.
Also when examined by a doctor, if you are vaping it registers as non smoker when measuring lung capacity.Well they also have many other ingredients besides the bases that absolutely aren’t tested for inhalation safety. Can’t say one way or the other whether they do because the lack of regulations means no studies are requried.
Not many, mostly food grade flavor. Which are tested to be generally safe.
Food grade testing does not test for inhalation safety is the thing tho
Still in practical use. it is common and always was. So claiming we have no knowledge of it is false. The only case I know of that has shown clear problems was the popcorn lung incident, where the factory had no ventilation, and the workplace was saturated with insane amounts of the butter flavor they made. Despite the atrocious conditions that caused the problem, the flavor was quickly taken out of products even before regulation could kick in. But AFAIK in normal use the flavor is as completely harmless as we can determine.
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/does-vaping-cause-popcorn-lung
Yes obviously there is a risk with everything, but the risk is tiny to the amount it is considered negligible.
Extreme use however will always have higher risk. EU has done things to try to prevent extreme vaping, but IDK if it’s working.
Here (Denmark) the flavors are banned almost completely, only tobacco flavor and menthol are allowed.
Kind of funny with the menthol, because if there is danger, the menthol expand the capillaries of the lungs, and allow the vapor to go further inside the lungs.
Which is why you should NEVER smoke menthol cigarettes.Even water is poisonous, if you drink 4 liters of water quickly, you would very likely die. It completely ruins the salt levels of the body, so your kidneys stop working, and you brain will swell so you die.
Nothing is COMPLETELY harmless, and especially nothing can be proven to be completely harmless. because the next test subject can be the one who is allergic, even if you have tested millions. The biggest test is commercialization where way more people use it than is ever tested in research. Completely harmless is an unrealistic requirement.
Well they link the study, but i cant get the link to work. If I were able to actually read their protoctol this research might mean something, but since their source is evidently uncited this is fake news.
It’s very clear that you have no experience with statistics or science.
the pharmaceutical quality products that dominate the industry.
I didn’t realise that the slimy guy who runs the 24hr convenience store and stares at the high school girls who come in just a little too long was using pharmaceutical grade materials to make his black market vapes.
If your response to a study on vaping risks is “just buy the pharmaceutical grade product”, you sound like the people who bought into the “filtered cigarettes are better for you” lie.
Actually chances are that that guy is using pharmaceutical grade bases and nicotine. And I don’t see why your fantasy story should reflect on the industry, because that kind of shop simply doesn’t exist here, an individual mixing his own juices doesn’t stand a chance in this business anymore, that rime passed more than a decade ago.
If people want home mixed, they can do it themselves.You think that guy is “dominating the industry”?
The tobacco lobby’s dead body still twitching it seems.
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*for e-cigarettes containing nicotine.
The primary source link in the article is broken, but the second one is two cases of men who consumed 20 and 30 e-cigarettes a day. The third is about nicotine vapes in mice. I don’t see anything about non-nicotene vapes.
Did their research for them, article here, paywalled, abstract only (not even citations). They say 3 cases of oral cancer in the abstract, case studies not stats. They also highlight 100x the level of Cotinine (the predominant metabolite of nicotine, so this is shocking I tell you. Shocking, interestingly it’s currently being studied as a treatment for depression, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s disease.).
The other thing that might be human (or not, only the abstract), likely in vitro, is “Biomarkers also indicate vaping-attributable oxidative stress, epigenetic change and inflammation in oral and respiratory tissue often specified in comparison with smoking.”, pretty unsurprising, “often specified in comparison” seems weaselly, and the rest is mouse studies it seems.
Seems pretty nothing burger to me, going off what I have, if there were significant results the abstract would be much stronger.
Whoever that user was a while back who was fighting mad at me for suggesting nicotine was harmful-- I’m sure you’re mad about this article too.
Nicotine itself is safe in appropriate quantities. It’s the delivery mechanism that is really dangerous.
According that angry user, glycerin or whatever they use is a billion percent safe so no way.
lol I didn’t go down that rabbit hole but I can see someone going there
