Similar to the recent question about artists where you can successfully separate them from their art. Are there any artists who did something so horrible, so despicable, that it has instantly invalidated all art that they have had any part in?
Very boring answer but JK Rowling.
Her books already had some questionable shit in them but witnessing that shockingly venomous transphobia really recontextualizes everything. I used to re read the Harry Potter saga every few years, but never again now, this whole, very nostalgic for me franchise is forever ruined now.
Can I recommend reading/listening to Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earth Sea books?
They’re also coming of age books about a young wizard, which almost certainly heavily inspired Rowling (although AFAIK she never admitted it), but the author is far less problematic. Also arguably much better books, so they’re more enjoyable to read for adults too.
And the cherry on top is this. You may notice a bit of misogyny built into a first couple books in the series, which is surprising given that Ursula is a woman. She not only noticed, admitted, and confronted that patriarchal slant, but corrected it by writing later stories in the same world that reversed that course. Those stories end up being much better than the foundational works in the series. I have become an instant fan of any author that can confront the flaws of their earlier writings and deliberately alter course to do better in their life and their writing.
Yeah, I actually read her last book in the series first, (it’s a distant sequel, very far removed from the rest of the series), and I can attest to the fact that she grew tremendously. I went back and read the first book, and was surprised at how different the last book was.
Another great choice is The King Henry Tapes by Richard Raley. It’s a take on HP, but the magical kid from a dysfunctional family is a juvenile delinquent with a foul mouth. One of my favorite series.
Pendragon by DJ MacHale is also a great set of books.
Id kill for an HP quality set of movies of this series.
Hey I know that series! And agree, though I think the last few books kinda lost me.
The Quillan Games is the book I remember being a bit tougher. It’s been quite a long time since I’ve read the series.
Yeah if I recall correctly it was basically a mix between Squid Game and Hunger Games? Before either one existed.
Terry Pratchett’s Tiffany Aching books are also great alternatives (and a gateway to the rest of the Discworld books, which are also great).
Yep! Harry Potter doesn’t teach you how to be a wizard, but Tiffany Aching teaches you how to be a witch.
I always thought harry potter was boring as shit. Never got through a movie, never read a book.
But the people who I did see reading the books in class were the ones who definitely would take issue with Rowling’s transphobia.
Yeah I was already a tiny adult when they came out. I tried reading them as an older adult and only got through one and a half.
Chamber of Secrets is definitely the weakest book in the series
Her vehement and vocal hatred for trans people is pretty strange to me. She just won’t let it go, no matter the fact that her very vocal opinions on the topic are destroying her own legacy.
I get that people are entitled to their opinions. But most people keep their thoughts to themselves if they start getting a lot of backlash. But she just keeps picking at it and making things worse for herself. I don’t know if it’s some sort of resentment born out of deeply hurt feelings, or unbridled arrogance that as a very rich and successful person people need to accept her opinions. Or maybe both. But it’s not working and she’s doing more harm than good, including to herself.
Try the Mage Errent series by John Bierce. It’s a full fantasy world with a hard magic aystem that’s about kids going to magic school.
same
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Oh I know all about that podcast trust me, it doesn’t change my opinion about Rowling in the slightest, and it’s far from being a good way to “understand this affair”.
If you’re genuinely curious, I highly recommend ContraPoint’s video about that very podcast, as well as her other video about Rowling.
I’ve linked to them as a reply to the comment you’re replying to.
Agree about the Witch Trials podcast .
Here’s a discussion of that podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmT0i0xG6zg
And another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gDKbT_l2us
Yes, they’re long videos. Yes, there’s a reason they have millions of views. Genuinely interesting.
I looked up all her tweets, and I don’t see much to disagree with.
If you go to Thailand, trans men are called ladyboys and if you ask them if they are women, they say, no, I’m a ladyboy. There’s nothing wrong with having the opinion that trans women will not be real women. She’s not saying she hates trans people, just that they will never be the same as biological women.
Yes, but Thailand is not the entire world, nor was it even the target audience of those tweets.
In the west, when you transition to another gender, it is because you want to identify as that gender. Thus when you say shit like ‘trans women aren’t real women’ you’re denying the identity of thousands of women worldwide.
But… the west isn’t the entire world either.
I think that’s the point. That culture matters and there’s not a one-size-fits-all interpretation or response that satisfies all of them.
People in the west want to believe their culture is the best and all others should follow, but that simply isn’t how the world works. That won’t stop them from getting mad over it, though.
We are talking about a western author broadcasting on a western platform in a western language, often directly in response to other westerners or western ideas of transsexuality. Makes it pretty clear who the target audience and culture is.
This may come as a shock to you, but a lot of westerners don’t believe in transexuality either.
Hey, we’re talking about one right now!
This is what I mean by thinking your culture is the best and all others should follow. Do you think Rowling would be justified if she tweeted in Thai? Lol. If not, then she isn’t unjustified for engaging with westerners.
Try to understand your way of life is not the only, or even the best, way of life.
This may come as a shock to you, but a lot of westerners don’t believe in transexuality either.
Hey, we’re talking about one right now!
No, they believe that transsexuals are heathen abominations that should be stripped of all human rights and dignity. There is a difference.
Try to understand your way of life is not the only, or even the best, way of life.
Try to understand that your way of life should not get in the way of others trying to enjoy theirs when it doesn’t harm other people.
they believe that transsexuals are heathen abominations that should be stripped of all human rights and dignity.
Some of them, sure. But some just disagree with the notion that trans-X are identical to their cis counterparts.
Try to understand that your way of life should not get in the way of others trying to enjoy theirs when it doesn’t harm other people.
I totally agree.
I am in the west and don’t think we have the best in every way culture. The more I travel the more I am aware of where we have plenty of room for improvement. I prefer living here, most people given the choice would as well, but that doesn’t mean best.
Just because one group that has a passing resemblance to another group says something doesn’t mean that it applies to every group with a passing resemblance. Especially when the group is from a completely different culture.
What’s a biological woman?
What is a human? What is knowledge? What is virtue? What is justice?
We have known for 2500 years that some words are very difficult to define in such a way that every single edge case is handled, it is complete, and short. The most famous example, 2500 years ago, was an academy defined human as a featherless biped. The next day someone released a plucked chicken.
For those words that are very difficult to define we develop criteria and gradually alter the criteria as time goes on, mostly based on the idea of ordinary language.
They mean people born with female bodies. So Cis women or FtM men.
I want him to define it.
Even cis women might not be ‘biologically female’
It comes from a high school level understanding of genetics.I do get what you mean, it’s oversimplifying a complicated subject.
A major issue is that she isn’t loyal and has her own opinions on the matter.
Independents are seen as enemies in the eyes of tribalists. Eventually, they become enemies.
Kanye. Piece of shit narcissist through and through.
yeah kanye for me too. used to be my favorite artist, paid out the ass for tickets on multiple tours, knew all the words to his first like, six albums. haven’t listened to him in like a year and a half after the Alex Jones interview and Adidas stories came out. it’s not even virtue signaling, it’s just too much work to not think about all the horrible shit he’s done and said. i count myself extremely lucky that i never got a tattoo
Exactly, it’s laborious separating them. Even shit he’s just produced like Hov or Pusha T. My favorite songs come on shuffle in the car, vibin, 30 sec in… “oh shit… right… hmm… ugh… argghhh” next track
It was always funny watching him talk about Jesus in his songs as though his lifestyle didn’t promote everything Christ went against.
And of course, the next generation sucked it up like a sponge.
Apparently Kanye has copied some great music, and we’ll know for sure if he ever releases some.
Kanye West. Maybe he was never ‘all there’ mentally to begin with, but the guy was clearly a role model to a lot of young people and utterly destroyed his own legacy.
Yep, I was a young person that loved Kanye back in high school when Graduation was the CD I had on me all the time.
Can’t listen to it anymore. It’s ruined. :{
I honestly wonder what happened to this guy. It was like a switch was hit and suddenly he was spouting nonsense and getting in trouble.
His mom dying on the table during an implant surgery was 100% the catalyst that thrust him towards what he is today. Totally unexpected, and she wasn’t anywhere near the age that her death would have been a thought.
A surgery that he paid for, iirc
I am just thinking about something my wife told me, she is a nurse in cardiac unit mostly. She told me the ones that are the most devastating to the families is when there is nothing wrong until there is. Grandma was fine yesterday, she is not fine today.
Lost Prophets. Lead singer fucked babies.
I honestly believe that if you’re convicted of shit like this the band should be able to sue to have your rights to royalties and any songwriting/producing credits revoked. Even if they have to surrender any monetary outcome to the victims or their families.
I know I loved the band growing up and the band have tried to separate themselves from the singer, but how can you? The music is still good but it can’t avoid leaving a bad feeling knowing he used the fame generated by the shared music for such heinous thing
It would make it a bit easier for people who can if you knew that the scumbag wasnt getting royalty cheques anymore.
Ian Watkins is a fucking extreme example, but imagine putting in a dozen years of your life and career, your art and passion into a band and its catalogue only for the lead singer to make it absolutely radioactive.
Hmm not a lawyer but I wonder if there might be some old law about this. Kinda feel like there is one since it’s retroactive.
Lead singer
fuckedraped babies.FTFY
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The point is that we should try to stop using euphemistic language around rape. It happens all the time, and it lessens the impact of the act for the reader. We should be explicit.
It’s necessary bc by your logic, “fucking” is a euphemism.
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You mean the distinction between engaging in consensual intercourse (aka “fucking”) vs committing a heinous crime?
If you think pointing out that babies can only be raped, is the problem, not saying he “fucked” them, this is a you problem…
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I’m making the point that babies cannot be fucked, only raped, which obviously isn’t “inherent” to the person who said “he fucked babies” which minimises the reality of the “scenario” as you call it (more minimisation, why do you do that? To preserve your own comfort of course!). Words matter, and if you think pointing that out is “splitting hairs” (when you’re literally the only one making a load of fuss over this valid distinction), then again, you’re the one with the problem here (and taking issue with someone pointed out that babies can only be raped, not “fucked” is definitely a problem that needs addressing, like seriously - imagine being the person dying on the hill to defend the use of “fucked” to describe baby rape… 🤦♀️).
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You seem awfully interested in this topic… Is there something we should know?
Lemmy sucks. This isn’t a you thing. Nobody IRL would ever spend the energy debating you on this. And of course a follow-up of “whoa relax don’t get triggered bro”
There is no understanding that words matter round these parts at all. This place is a dangerous bubble bc it started as a place where one assumed everyone was on the level. So if you were the outlier opinion, maybe it really was you: I’d challenge myself and question my opinions. Now, if I’m downvoted, I dig in and entrench.
Others might just call it being pedantic.
Yeah, he’s reddit-brained for sure.
Omfg. I’m a big slippery slope, legal precedent, kind of guy. But this demands capital punishment if not castration/sterilization. Just make them laws for one day for this dude. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-25108439
I’m convinced he’s not all there. Dude was talking about what he’s going to do when he gets out of prison. He doesn’t seem to understand they’re going to wheel him out on a trolley.
whenever I see a meme with art from stonetoss (a neo-nazi) in it, I have a visceral response
Damn, source on the neo nazi thing? It’s usually just memes that I’ve seen with his content, now I’m wondering what he really draws about.
Here’s a video covering it by Thought Slime
Hitler
That guy is literally Hitler.
Heard he killed Hitler though
“DJ” Khalid. I’ve heard that he’s actually a very talented musician. I’ve never been shown proof that the claims are true.
Following is also proof that he can read
Is it proof he can read? He has someone else read the note for him. Seems more like proof he can’t read.
Edit: or did I just get whooshed? If you’re being sarcastic it’s not clear.
You’ve been whoosed. Not only could he not read the note, he also had no idea what a guitar was or how to play one…
That probably should have been more obvious to me then it was. I’m really sick and taking lots of cold medicine. Should probably stop commenting on anything for a while.
I’ve heard he’s a crappy musician but he’s good at getting clashing personalities to work together.
He like Mozart^2
John Kricfalusi, creator of Ren & Stimpy. That man is a demon.
The Rick & Morty guy kind of ruined his show, too.
New season with replaced voice actor is really good.
What he do?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kricfalusi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Happy_Joy_Joy:_The_Ren_and_Stimpy_Story
Tldr. Basically, he was a piece of shit tyrant edgelord who kept trying to push boundaries and didn’t quite understand humor. His show was only made good by everybody around him trying to rein him in and fix his fuck ups. Also for good measure, he’s a sex pest.
I once met Bob Camp in Atlantic City in 2015 and he told me this whole story. He said he hated JohnK and that he was possibly the most deranged person he had ever met. He then told me that the only thing that came out of this that was good in the end was SpongeBob.
Sick Little Monkeys: The Unauthorized Ren & Stimpy Story is the book that he referred me to if I wanted more details.
Watched a documentary about him recently and it seems like he was using the show/animation staff as therapy, which is incredibly wrong.
Classic
Sweet didn’t know this was made! I would also recommend Sick Little Monkeys by Thad Komorowski if you are interested in the behind the scenes stuff.
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Didn’t know all this about him. Not surprised. It was so gross, God knows how it informed our development. It’s really uncomfortable to watch as an adult. And my goodness - did you watch the adult version when they brought it back years ago? Jfc
JK Rowling. Fuck Harry Potter.
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For anyone thinking about listening to this podcast, it still platforms a lot of her crazy ideas. The following excerpt is from near the end of this article.
March 2023: A new podcast, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, produced by Bari Weiss’s The Free Press and hosted by prominent former Westboro Baptist Church member Megan Phelps-Roper, featured interviews with Rowling. In its fifth episode, Rowling begins discussing the modern trans rights movement, calling it “a cultural movement that was illiberal in its methods and questionable in its ideas” and insisting, “I believe, absolutely, that there is something dangerous about this movement and that it must be challenged.” She then compares the movement to Death Eaters — the villainous supremacists in her books, analogous to Nazis…
Bari Weiss is not someone to give your time to so thanks for posting that. Nearly everything she writes now is dishonest and she pretends to espouse liberal ideas while constantly taking conservative positions and then calling herself a “left-leaning centrist”. It’s hot garbage.
I wouldn’t call it good. Contrapoints covered that podcast here
I listened to the podcast. The interviewer doesn’t challenge Rowling at all and simply lets her speak/answer with her incorrect assumptions. However it also shined a light on how badly thought out her ideas are and how informed she is, not by empathy, but by her own prejudice. After listening, I became even more confident in my opinion of Rowling.
I also think it’s worth a listen is you can swallow your bile for the first few episodes.
I still listen to Michael Jackson but I won’t listen to R Kelly.
Well to be fair one was found guilty in a court of law and the other (I don’t believe but feel free to correct me) didn’t even have a criminal case brought against him.
Well, one’s alive and the other isn’t. As long as the inheritors of MJ’s estate are decent people, I think it’s fine at this point. Still skeeves me out to listen to his stuff, though. Two verses in and my brain is popping.
You know that while he was incredibly strange, there were never any credible accusations right? There were a lot of people fluffing the stories trying to get a payout but there was never any evidence of wrongdoing.
As far as I’m aware none of MJs accusers still say he did anything, and nearly all of them say their parents pressured them to say stuff he didn’t do for a settlement. He was definitely a weird guy but you look at his upbringing and it was trauma after trauma by adults exploiting him for money.
If it was one kid? I’d have doubts. Once it passed into double digits? Nope.
If there is one accusation still active, sure. But every single case I’ve heard of, the family withdrew and admitted they were looking for a cash settlement.
Loved Michael Jackson music so fucking much. Can’t stomach it anymore.
But the first few moments of Billy Jean…
Ian Watkins. Leaf singer of Lost Prophets.
Convicted baby rapist.
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For me he is the perfect counter example. I despise that cunt as much as the next guy, but god damn he is a good actor.
He also signs on to REALLY GOOD scifi scripts that might not have gotten as much budget without his name.
Same. Guy gives me the creeps. As do far too many others from Jack Nicholson to James Franco (not sure why those came to mind first, and I was going to continue listing, but honestly there are just too many, some, like Russel Brand it was obvious way before any public allegations were made, so there are those as well, where we’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop. There are also those who I can’t stand seeing/hearing because they’re bigots, so I really could be here all day).
I’m not claiming any purity by the way, there are far too many to flat out avoid them all, but some simply make my skin crawl more than others, and I just don’t need to consume something that makes me feel that way. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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Not as if I’m a fan, but Eric Gill is/was a prolific, respected and internationally renowned artist. You’ll his work across the UK, perhaps most notably on the BBC’s broadcasting house.
Also designed the Gill Sans typeface, which I think everyone’s heard of or even used. Used all across the world on signage or stores.
Here’s why I have a hard time taking his works at face value:
Although the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography describes Gill as “the greatest artist-craftsman of the twentieth century: a letter-cutter and type designer of genius”, he is also a figure of considerable controversy following the revelations of his sexual abuse of two of his daughters and of his pet dog.
That’s the pokemon TCG font, also notably
George W. Bush
What art had he done?
Underground bukkake performance stuff
Eh, not really.
Now, there are some examples where I won’t/can’t actively seek out their work, and would never contribute to them by buying anything at all, ever.
Cosby falls into that category, just as an example.
But, I have a complete separation as far as the work itself being valid/good despite the origins. Using Cosby as the example again, if I’m somewhere and one of his performances is on, I’m not going to care enough to change a channel or leave, or even say anything.
That’s pretty much anyone and everyone. I just don’t have that thing where a given item, piece of work, whatever, is “tainted” just because the person that made it is a piece of shit. I don’t form an association like that. It’s that I choose to not seek out some things as a matter of principle.
But, as a general rule, if they’re dead, I don’t care at all. And, if the person in question is only one person involved in a group effort, that group effort is fine by me. Like, if the guitarist of a band is a piece of shit, but everyone else is not, why would their work be a bad thing?
Now, this isn’t to say that I ignore any bad acts when interacting with a given work. Take van Gogh as an example. His excesses and disturbing behaviors are part of his work to an extent. It’s a thing where knowing the person’s flaws informs the interaction with the work. Kinda like “gee, I wonder how much of this work stems from the same root as the bad acts did?”
But, I can enjoy the work of people I personally despise with no issues. I just don’t have whatever it is that other people have that makes a thing tainted based on the creator.
Part of that is knowing how shitty humans in general are, and how hard it is to find any artist that didn’t/doesn’t have massive flaws. In music and painting in particular, you run into a shit ton of artists that were abysmal people. If I did have that whatever it is that causes a connection between the art and the artist’s flaws, I wouldn’t be able to listen to much music at all.
