I think centralization played a big role in this, at least for software. When messaging meant IRC, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, Xfire, Ventrilo, TeamSpeak, or any number of PHP forums, you had to be able to pick up new software quickly and conceptualized the thing it’s doing separate from the application it’s accomplished with. When they all needed to be installed from different places in different ways you conceptualize the file system and what an executable is to an extent. When every game needs a bit of debugging to get working and a bit of savvy to know when certain computer parts are incompatible, you need a bit of knowledge to do the thing you want to do.
That said, fewer people did it. I was in highschool when Facebook took off, and the number of people who went from never online to perpetually online skyrocketed.
I teach computer science, I know it isn’t wholly generational, but I’ve watched the decline over the past decade for the basics. Highschool students were raised on Chromebooks and tablets/phones and a homogenous software scene. Concepts like files, installations, computer components, local storage, compression, settings, keyboard proficiency, toolbars, context menus - these are all barriers for incoming students.
The big difference, I think, is that way more people (nearly everyone) has some technical proficiency, whereas before it was considered a popular enough hobby but most people were completely inept, but most of students nowadays are not proficient with things past a cursory level. That said, the ones who are technically inclined are extremely technically inclined compared to my era, in larger numbers at least.
Higher minimum and maximum thresholds, but maybe lower on average.
Boomer here. As a lifelong software developer I’ve always known more about computers than most people in my age group generally, but I’ve always assumed younger people know more than I do because they’ve grown up with so much more tech. Maybe they tend to be more at user-level with it. I’ve never thought about that.
Among other things I am responsible for setting up our users with software, and the young folk are not really any more capable than average boomers with PCs. They don’t understand the file system, basic cables, or even the most basic Windows settings.
basic cables
Bless his heart but we had a new guy setting his dock station up a couple years ago now, he tried daisy chaining his monitors display input together to make a dual display set up. We were small talking about our PC setup a little bit before this interaction. This was my moment of “what happened?”
I get that sometimes people don’t know exactly how something works and they get confused, like ethernet splitters not allowing you to split the output of one cable to two PCs. Fair enough, people used to cable TV and phone lines might not expect that behaviour.
What could possibly make you think monitors can be daisy chained? Nothing else in that space works that way either… Though now you’ve got me wondering about USB-C monitors and what kind of unholy hell of client confusion we might be bringing to our doorstep with those.
All the kids I’ve met are good at navigating UI, regardless of the platform. They know how to use websites well, but they don’t know how they work. This is a generalization, though.
I actually had a nightmare last night: my boss took me offline while I was making a script, and I think that’s even scarier for younger generations. This is coming from an older Gen Z.
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Bold of you to claim most millennials understand how a computer works.
They don’t understand a lot, but when you say things like “browser to the D: drive and attach the document called ‘not porn.jpg’ to an email, and send it to me”, you will likely get that email.
You can’t say the same about other generations because they don’t interact with the technology in the same way, if at all.
We are the bridge generation.
We know and saw a world without the internet and we experienced it when it first came to be.
We saw the first mass produced computers and computer devices which broke often, didn’t work the way we wanted them to, they weren’t fast and they didn’t have much memory in any way. We were the first generation to see all this. Our parents were too old and busy to figure it out but we were young enough to be curious about it all. We also kept wanting to have the newest fastest hardware and software so we had no choice but to either buy, beg or steal these things to get them. We learned to swap parts, add parts, remove parts, install an OS, uninstall the OS, run backups, store data and learn it all on our own because there was no easy internet social media community to help you. Software was constantly changing and we had to keep up by either buying expensive titles or we learned about Linux and open source software or we became digital pirates or both.
Now the digital landscape has changed. Younger generations prefer handheld devices so to them everything is solid state … they never can imagine changing the RAM, HDD, SSD, CPU, GPU or the PSU or even bothering to learn what those things are. Because everything is built in and no one (or very few) people bother with fixing or tinkering with anything. There are fewer people who learn about software and about how or where to find it, install it, configure it and run it. To new generations who only know the digital world through locked devices, there was less incentive to learn or even have access to know how these things worked.
We are the bridge generation. We got to see the world without the internet and the world with one. No one before us got to see what we saw, no one after us will experience what we went through. Our civilization dramatically changed during our lifetime and we got a front row seat.
We got to live in the most interesting times in history, so far. Most of us are depressed for it.
It’s not easy growing up in houses, watching our parents complain about tiny things while cashing huge paychecks… And now they tell us it’s our fault we can’t afford that lifestyle.
Boomers are real pieces of shit, as a whole. Not all of them, of course… But man, there’s a very real trend.
I thought it was because we didn’t want to work. Man, I really dislike that statement.
The PSU is the only thing you can change easily. I love that everything is USB-C and that I can plug in everything, everywhere.
But I’m kind of happy everyone uses handhelds, I got really tired fixing everything for my entire family and friends.
“My printer seems to be defectiv…”
Entschuldige, ich kann kein Englisch. Muss weg, keine Zeit. Bye!
The PSU might be easy in practice but all those cords are daunting to the novice. Much easier to swap the RAM or even to take out and put in a new GPU.
I love that everything is USB-C
Well, maybe things are easier now. My 12 year old PC build has a modular PSU with a bunch of different cords.
I work in Tech and this is my mantra: printers are Of the Devil.
My buddy worked tech support for a fairly large facility. They got tired of getting calls for a busted printer, only to walk all the way across the facility to discover it was out of paper. It got to the point that if someone called about a printer, they would wait an hour before responding. If nobody else called within that hour, they assumed the issue was resolved on its own.
I’m sure they got to us because they were too evil for hell and the devil itself got tired of them.
The part that royally pisses me off is that a roommate used to work for Lexmark. One day he brings home an “all in one” printer, fax, scanner, and something else I am forgetting. Best scanner I have ever seen. No light bar. The thing worked by taking four pictures and digitally meshing them together. When you scanned a document, there was a series of 4 rapid flashes. One Magenta, one Cyan, one Yellow, one White.
The damn thing was absolutely perfect at digitizing anything you put onto the unit’s scanning glass, but it did have a design issue where the scanning glass wasn’t parallel to the floor, and was instead tilted like a desktop picture frame.
According to my roommate, that particular design flaw is why they decided to kill the printer, never releasing it to the public. AFAIK they never even tried that scanning tech in any other printer.
In healthcare IT there’s often a person who specializes in just printers. My friend makes a lot of money doing that.
I once turned down a job solely because they asked too many questions about printers during the interview.
I won’t be the printer guy! That path leads to depression.
Oh and cancer. Toner gives you cancer.
It’s like all the old geezers who cum into carbeurators but like, shouldn’t they be happy that fuel-injection is a million times better and more reliable? I work on my own car and I can handle that shit in my driveway easy but these people seem to want more work to do. Yes, Fred, carbs make more sense for dirtbikes but oh my god otherwise shut up.
As for printers yea what the fuck. They all work differently even within the same company when all they need to do is take the exact same control module, maybe two versions of it, and slap it onto different bodies. But, instead, it’s just a giant fucking mess.
My 13 y o niece had no idea how to uninstall a program on a PC. I was a little stunned.
I’m reasonably certain that all four of my housemates, (58 y/o +) don’t have any idea how to close a program either on their laptops, or their phones. Thankfully I’m the only desktop guardian.
My government teacher in 12th grade got hit with an RIAA suit for seeding thousands of hours of music on Kazaa. When she found out that it was “illegal pirating” she deleted the icon off the desktop and thought she was done.
She never had to deal with a 4GB hard drive running out of space :-/
Defragmenting often to free up some precious megabytes. I felt like the king of the world upgrading from 4 to 20 GB.
Now I treat a few gigabytes the way I used to treat a few megabytes (like they’re nothing)
The comp for an older generation is cars. Cars saw similar growth and adoption in the 50s-80s. And they had similar growing pains, reliability and maintenance issues were common place. So being able to perform maintenance and having an understanding of how they work was far more wide spread than just hobbyist and professionals.
As cars advanced the need to perform field maintenance and ad hoc repairs became less required so future generations (on average) became less knowledgeable and skilled at various car repair (and modification) activities, because cars just work now so there’s really no need to worry about learning how to fix minor issues, because they’re just not a common problem.
Case in point: I drive an EV and I don’t think there’s a damn thing I personally can do to fix it other than maybe change a tire. It doesn’t even have a spare and I wouldn’t even know how anyway.
My god, I’m the iPad kid of cars.
It’s a deliberate choice by companies because they sell you the thing, and the service to fix the thing.
There’s a lot you can still do. All the suspension, battery cooler pump, brakes, wheel bearings, a ton of things to do with the electrical system and lights, fuses and relays, window and lock motors, blinker arms and switches, fluid changes, hvac and ac components, the traction motors themselves…generally the only thing hard for a shade tree mechanic is the battery itself. They’re really heavy and hard to remove.
Now some components are going to be hard to get a hold of because there isn’t any third party companies making replacements, but eventually as need arises, they’ll get made. Until then there’s places like pick n pull where you can go take used parts off used vehicles or buy used and tested components from ebay if the manufacturer won’t sell you something. I bought a new oem hybrid battery just a couple years ago from a Toyota dealership and installed it myself.
You also can’t wrench on a car anymore in the way you used to. It’s all computerized and you need special software to access and configure parts.
I can’t replace my airbags without special pairing software that cost tens of thousands of dollars. It’s unlikely that I’ll learn by performing the repair because the tools are no longer available.
Eh…that’s still pretty doable. Many things actually got easier for auto work. A $12 bluetooth obdII dongle and a $4 piece of software on your phone will give you most all the trouble codes you need to diagnose problems, and that’s it it doesn’t outright tell you the issue. Almost no car parts are parts paired and thanks to the internet there’s guides that are way better than a Haines manual to show you how to fix things, as well as a dozen different places to order parts from.
In the past 15 years the only time I’ve used a mechanic was to replace a clutch.
Here I am at 41 and know how to screw with everything. I stayed inquisitive and stayed a tight ass. I think I’ve paid for a professional to do something twice in the past 20 years. I didn’t want to take on the task of replacing a clutch on a front wheel drive suv on the ground in my driveway.
The difference is that you don’t need to be car savvy not to get into an accident. But you do need to be tech savvy not to be at risk of cyberthreats.
Drivers truly don’t need to know how a car works, software is not like that.
Also, you can get by without a car, whereas most people need at least an email address.
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. Do people think that you need to know about how engines work to drive a car. Or do people don’t think you need to understand file structure to manage excel files?
Great write up
It’s not like your bridge generation is the only one that know how to use a computer. To me it seems that there are a few ‘experts’ in each generation and the others don’t bother learning it. This is pretty normal and called specialization, the thing that civilization allows us to do.
I grew up with computers, there was no strict need to change OSes or even hardware (of you got prebuilts). Even so, it’s amazing what unrestricted Internet access and an interest in videogames can lead to. And I know a lot of others who either have at least the basic skills, or are studying Computer science together with me.
Perhaps there are trends in each generation, but acting like it’s just one generation that can do computer things is just wrong.
Poverty is also a driving force. I’ve never had a lot of money so I had to be creative in order to do a lot of things. I know how to fix repair and even build my own house. I know how to fix and maintain most things with all my vehicles. I know how to build fix and maintain my own computer systems because I could never afford expensive devices or to pay anyone to fix things for me.
Because I couldn’t afford much, I’ve instead had to spend most of my time doing things myself.
Very eloquently put.
I’m not sure what the generation breakdown is. I’m in my 50’s and fix PCs. My brother in law is in his 70’s and fixes PCs. One of his 3 daughters (40) fixes her own PC.
It seems like it’s everyone between 40-80.
in my 50s* + in his 70s*
GenX is what the comment is about. Millennials were born to home computers but the early ones had to contend with much the same mess we did.
Millennials were born to home computers
The majority of Millennials probably first got a PC in the home in their tween/teen years.
Early millennials are definitely thrown in there and remember “before the internet and cell phones” where a thing. I was flipping dip switches on my motherboard to make my swapped out components work. My first pc I got a hold of ran on dos and 5 1/4 floppies. Teens of the 90"s are probably the most pc tech literate ones.
Yeah, early millennial and OPs comment fits to a “T” for me, though I think some of my experiences had a bit more socialization in context, like ICQ, Aol chat, and MSN messenger. The rise of cell phones, text messages, T9, etc. My kids are amazed when I pull out the VHS tapes at my parents, or my dad pulls out some cassettes or vinyls (though those have been more popular of late).
I think your family are tinkerers, and they are a rare breed. A group of people who just love taking things apart, bringing them back together and doing all sorts of other things with them. My family is a bit like that but we never had the technical expertise. I’m indigenous from northern Ontario and a lot of my cousins and relations have a grade school education but there is a whole lot of excellent small engine mechanics. I have one cousin who barely spoke any English but her regularly swapped while engines from trucks to keep old vehicles running.
I tinker myself which is why I learned about computers and computer technology on my own but never to a really high level.
So every generation has their outliers and your family were probably the same group of people that made things or fixed things in earlier generations.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Learning to edit config.sys to get some share ware game working without help was a rite of passage for many.
Kids don’t even understand file structures because modern OSs obfuscate that stuff.
That’s my biggest gripe to be honest with modern OSs. My files in my folders are organized like I organize my house. I live in and around that. I hate the idea of a “Downloads” and other stuff with “automatically in the cloud backup for this app”. Give me a file to save you stupid app.
Yeah ya stupid app!
tell em!
Android has taken away a lot of the manual usage shit when it comes to doing what you want of it on behalf of security protections. Well fuck you, if I want a program to have certain access to things I should be allowed to do it, whether you like it or not. My N20U still can’t have a full and proper root.
I don’t mind that they simplify it. It makes it easier for more users. Its the fact that even advanced users can’t access it. Not a problem with a perfect app on a perfect operating system with perfect interoperability. None of those exist.
A colleague was trying to share a 365 file with me last week. I didn’t have permission to open it. I was begging them to just save a “physical” copy to disk and email it to me. I hate the cloud.
Genuinely, Microsoft onedrive/365 share sucks ass. It just does. I got 365 Family since my family doesn’t know how to use anything else besides office apps so I just got the subscription that also gives you onedrive. So, I’ve been using that cloud storage if it’s available and god dammit, why is it so hard to share, find and search files in there.
Kids? Try being a manager trying to hire for entry level data work.
I got maybe one out of five people who even knew how to do basic things like opening windows explorer and navigating through folders. And from that slim margin, finding someone who actually knows how to use software like excel or outlook or word, it makes me want to reword the listing to say that we need people with 5 five years experience. For entry level.
I have become that which we hate. I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work. You have spent all your time browsing and none of your time challenging yourselves to install software yourself, to copy and move files, or tried even opening your “settings” panel to adjust things. When I started working a lifetime ago, I took some free lessons in learning how to navigate excel and other popular programs. Using that TINY bit of training, I went on to make formulas and automated several of the systems at my first job. I went from counting screws in the warehouse to an eventual VP position.
You can get much, much further ahead of the curve if you actually try to learn a little more about the things you use every day, and you will grow your opportunities more than you can imagine.
“Get off my lawn kids. And god forbid we train people.”
The common man won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use. Why is it somehow worst for young people?
The personal computer as we grew up with is long gone, but somehow, companies and hiring managers expect everyone to be like it is still the case.
And let’s be real, the vast majority of people don’t know how to use excel even if they work with it every day. For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
So yeah, ask for 5 years experience for an entry level data entry position, that’ll fix it for you.
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For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
As someone in the generation mentioned in the OP meme I can confirm, most people in my generation don’t know how to use Excel either, didn’t know it when we were younger and that is mostly because it is largely used in professional settings for a narrow range of jobs for its actual purpose and everyone else in a slightly wider range of jobs would be better off using a web app with an actual database.
My last job still had an access app for generating task lists
I’ve met software developers who didn’t know how to use Excel properly (in the sense of not even knowing they could use formulas).
I think that’s very much for the reason you state: they “won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use”.
It’s not just a “common man” thing, it’s an everybody thing - there’s just too much stuff and not enough time to learn it all, so even software developers might never find themselves in a situation were they have to understand Excel enough to know such simple things as how to use functions in the cells, how to use references to other cells or how to make some references be relative to a cell’s position and other absolute.
Mind you, they’ll probably learn it way faster than “common” people simply because so much of its advanced usage follows “programmer logic”, but that still requires them to be forced to actually use it long enough and often enough that they put the effort into learning it.
Well I’m your man! Been using Windows since I stopped using DOS. I meet every requirement you’ve listed here for the job you’ve described and then some. And not one of your peers will give me a call back. Not one.
If nothing else, gimme some pointers about how to make it thru your ATS. If i can get human eyes I can get hired. Problem is getting that far.
And pay is 39k.
Amen. Been on the hunt for 3 years, had one call back. It’s brutal.
I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work.
And they don’t need to, that’s not what entry level means.
If a skill isn’t needed in day to day life anymore and is needed for the job you’re putting out, it’s no longer a common knowledge skill.
When the talent pool changes, so should expectations.
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Kids aren’t well organized and file structures take time and practice to understand. No idea why anyone would assume a 10 year old who has been using a computer for maybe two or three years would be as experienced as a 30 year old who’d been doing the work for over 20.
Also, no shortage of Millennials who don’t know how computers work. I deal with them every day.
Other than iOS what PC OS hides file structures?
Android is atrocious with this. Windows can be pretty annoying as well, saving things but you have no idea where it is.
Honestly, I find the most frustrating part about file management on android is how terrible the AOSP file manager and most other files managers are. They simply do not make sense. For some reason, someone thought it would be a good idea to make the big button called “pictures” show you images regardless of where they are located instead of being a shortcut to the “pictures” directory.
Other than dumping files into documents and apps, windows is very open.
Android isn’t a PC OS.
It’s sad that they keep trying to make PCs more like phones. I want phones to be more like PCs.
I agree 100%. It’s a bleak future.
Nobody said PC, Android is a computer operating system.
Smartphones are computers that occasionally make phone calls.
I said PC
No, you edited your post around 19 hours later to add “PC”. Honesty is not your strong point is it?
Yup I did change it. If I had kept it as “computer” that’s what you would have cried about. Even though it’s obvious computer means PC.
When people talk about smartphones they either call it that, or they say android/iOS
What’s a computer?
iOS is literally designed for toddlers to be able to use it. “iPad kids” aren’t especially gifted, “iPad adults” are especially stupid.
But on the bright side, those same groups think they “know computers” because they can press large, brightly colored buttons - so they walk around with unearned confidence in their abilities and impatience/lack of appreciation for the people that actually have to fix things.
It’s also why a large swatch of these same fucking idiot, drains on humanity loudly challenge the validity of voting tech infrastructure without any factual basis to their argument - they just “feel” like they get it.
My boss very confidently proclaimed that all serious IT professionals use a Mac. Said Linux “is for programmers and nerds”
So, programmers != IT professionals, huh…
IT professionals are more the folks that install and maintain large scale computer systems and networks, like a company’s IT department or MSP. Programming is closer to engineering. Software engineering.
I work in devops…
“IT professional” does typically lean more towards that yes, but it also encompasses software developers.
If they work professionally in IT, then they’re by definition “IT Professionals”.
Absolutelly, the definition of “IT Professional” starts at lower (or maybe the correct term would be “more generic, maintenance-oriented and less specialized”) levels of domain expertise than “Software Developer” and most people out there’s contact with an “IT Professional” won’t include a software developer (even in the average business, which is unlikely to directly use Programmers but will almost certainly use the services of System Administrators and Network Engineers), but saying they’re not IT Professionals would be a bit like saying that the people who design cars aren’t Auto Industry Professionals, only Car Mechanics are.
Mind you, I don’t disagree that Programming is closer to Engineering: my point is that Engineering IT Systems is still a profession in IT, just like car design (in the technical sense) is both an Engineering practice and a profession in the Auto Industry.
Linux is for programmers and nerds
…and your ideal system administrator is neither of those?
As an IT professional, Macs are used by people that couldn’t figure out Windows. Linux is for people that understand enough about Windows to live in constant fear of the next newsworthy workday.
Macs are for people who want a high performance laptop with great battery life and build quality. Hardware and driver issues are extremely rare. An out of the box Unix environment and great desktop applications for everything round it out. Macs are for people who want a to get actual work done and not lose time babysitting or tinkering with their computer.
Windows usability has become worse since 7 and it’s now filled with crap and ads. The different settings applications are an embarrassment and insult to users.
couldn’t figure out windows
Decided their time is too valuable to spend it on dealing with Windows‘ bullshit.
did apple pay you to write this
Ha! I totally agree! But I also can’t resist defending Mac a little bit.
Maybe I’m just weird, but I grew up on Commodore, then DOS + Windows, then Windows (when it became all-in-one and not just a GUI shell over DOS). I got into Linux desktops and servers in college and will only ever do a server on Linux, of course. Throughout all of this, both software consumption and development have been constants for me.
Right now, I greatly prefer MacBooks for productivity, and I have been keeping a Windows PC going for flight simming, though I’m tempted to switch that to Linux ever since MS declared it too old to run Windows even though it’s still perfectly capable of doing everything I care about–MS just insists on “trusted platform” hardware now.
Anyways, the point I’m going for is that Mac is also for nerds, especially ones who understand Windows and Linux and just enjoy a nice workstation that combines the best of both worlds. Windows is trying to catch up with WSL, but it’s still a bolt-on, whereas Mac is BSD under the hood. I’ve been hearing about nice Linux laptop options and hope it will get to an equally nice experience, but, for now, Mac, for me, is like a new car. Sure, I used to do my own maintenance and some repairs on my old cars, but now I have a job and can pay for something that usually just works, that allows me plenty of ways to tinker, and that I can pay to have fixed when I don’t want to spend my time grinding on something unfulfilling.
IMHO,
Windows has completelly stopped its trend of becoming less shit over time and has actually started going backwards.
Modern Macs (having used both, I would say they aren’t really direct descendants of the original Macs but rather they’re major redesigns) already started at a point when usuability could be done better, kept improving for longer and, even though they stopped improving in terms of usability, unlike Windows they haven’t gone back.
Linux is the only one that still keeps on improving (though usuability-wise it started ever further back than Windows), though slower than the others and often in a two-steps-forward-and-one-back fashion, so it’s about to go past Windows (one might stay that it has already done so in usability and is only the large number of Windows-only applications that keeps Windows ahead) and hopefully will eventually pass Macs too.
Whilst what I expect for Linux has a big dollop of hopefulness, for the rest I think it’s pretty obvious that Windows has never surpassed Macs in terms of usability and will never do.
the point I’m going for is that Mac is also for nerds,
Don’t you find them extremely restrictive and hard to repair? I know they want the walled garden, and absolutely don’t want anyone opening up a Mac/iphone and changing hardware other than a Apple tech. That removes all the fun from tinkering with and customizing your stuff.
Fair point! I don’t know what I’ll do whenever I eventually have to replace mine. I was lucky (I guess) to get the last model that had a removable drive and the keyboard I ended up loving. I upgraded my storage to 2 gigs and felt that covered everything I cared to change on this one.
But I’ll have to seriously reconsider on future models, as I am enticed by the newer Apple chips but have certainly heard the uproar about the relatively small amount of ram offered. And now that we’re on the subject, I’m not thrilled about the idea of Apple dropping OS support (i.e., security updates) for older models. I want to upgrade when I’m ready for an overhaul in performance, not just because they want to sell more.
I guess I need to be more specific about “nerd.” I find it great for software nerdiness, but I have to admit the only physical use case nowadays is plebian: “just take my money and make it work.”
As an IT professional that uses a Mac and runs multiple Linux boxes, Windows is for people who don’t know about computers. MacOS and Linux are for people who do. Some Windows people should be the other two, but live on Windows because they’ve learned enough to deal with it.
I’m in IT, from my experience, most people who use Macs either use it for media, because it is easy to use for the common man, or it is the most expensive option.
Also most people who use Macs need help from their Linux using coworkers to get anything moderately difficult done on their systems.
I’ve been in IT for over 20 years the most of the people who use Macs do so because there’s supported business software written for it while still being Unix under the hood.
I too been in IT for over 20 years and most people I’ve seen using Macs were Graphics Designers and Marketing types.
I’ve seen but a handfull of IT Professionals using them and I’ve seen significantly more IT Professionals using Linux for work than Macs.
My experience covers a couple of countries and various industries since I’ve worked as a contractor (a kind of Freelancer) for most of the time so moved around a lot more than people working as permanent employees would.
Maybe one or two people I’ve seen using Macs cared about it being Unix under the hood and I think all of those were the above mentioned IT Professionals who used Macs.
People doing Graphics Design and other such digital media work (which is how Marketing types commonly ended up using it) really loved them because they were easy to use, had proper color calibration together with really great quality high resolution screens (the first properly supported 4K computer screens were Mac), plus the whole Adobe Suite as well as pretty much all other top professional design and media work software has full native Mac versions. These people were, however, not computer experts in the IT Professional sense of the word (even the Graphics Designers working on Tech Startups were tech users, not tech experts) and did not at all value the “Unix under the hood” characteristic of Macs.
Mine was mainly at startups that did big data and open source software, and the only folks in the org who used Windows were generally the accountants.
Yeah, during my period in Tech Startups I did see a bit more of usage of Macs than in other places (such as Finance, Software Products, Software Consultancy and even Publishing), but always felt it was driven by the whole halo of “fashionability” around Apple Products, which isn’t really a rational reason.
In my experience Mac use is also more likely in people doing Frontend work than Server-side work, maybe because the latter is not at all about visuals and most server-side work targets Linux so it’s way simpler to just have Linux in your workstation.
Then again I’ve been using Linux since the 90s so maybe I’m biased ;)
A big study by IBM showed that Mac users are more productive and cost less to support than Windows. A company won’t buy things for their foot soldiers that is “fasionable” like they will for the execs. But they’ll definitely do it if it means they need to hire fewer IT support staff.
In my experience the backend guys are more likely to use Linux compared to other folks, but a lot of them still used a Mac because they didn’t need to do a bunch of work to get Zoom or Teams working.
all serious IT professionals
programmers and nerds
TIL, not the same group.
If you laugh, even once, they throw you out of the serious IT group.
Which group do programmer socks put me in?
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I say… where is your top hat, Sir! This is not stone story of a layabouts IT group! Have you no decency, Sir!
people like your boss are awesome. managing their macs pays so stupid well, it feeds my linux home sever upgrade habit.
Looks like a win win situation.
So what do they make of people like me who who use Linux on a Mac, with e.g. Colima or Rancher desktop - doing cloud/kubernetes/python development? I moved to a Mac a couple of years ago after 20 years of using Linux as my daily driver because frankly Bluetooth audio on Linux sucks and because I was tired of getting endless different video conference / screensharing solutions working at short notice for interviewing.
He’s not wrong. There is a lot more money in selling hype and style, than functionality and substance. Pro’s need pay.
Dunning-Kruger
Yes. 100%
”iPad adults” are especially stupid.
Does this mean a specific type of adult, or adults who use iPads? Cause…I consider myself pretty technically gifted, I’m a software developer, previously worked IT…and I love my iPad (for the things it’s good for).
Not OP but I suspect they mean adults that struggle with normal technology but thrive on ipads (can remember the button they use to open sodoku)
Nothing at all wrong with making technology easy to use for the masses, but this can create problems.
Even the “problems” are only really a problem for those who value understanding how Tech works and hence see a lack of it as a problem (welcome to Lemmy!).
I’m not so sure that, in the greater scheme of things, not understanding the innards of Tech is a “problem” anymore than not knowing how to fix your own car is a “problem”.
The only way I can see that it might be a problem in a more general sense of the word is if that’s helping enabling enshittification because people don’t understand Tech enough to be able to avoid or more away from enshittified options.
I like the size and heft of the ipad - I never sit at a desk with a computer anymore outside of work, and feel like I thoroughly earned the right to that. But as a productivity device it feels like a straitjacket.
Love my iPad for making art with Procreate, reading, playing media, as a universal remote for home automation, games, showing photos to friends, looking up stuff of the internet, reading, for DJing.
There are no messengers, calendars, or communication apps configured on it. So there are no notifications.
I sometimes try it for productivity, but run into limitations quickly. It’s okay for editing a document for a bit, but managing files is already torture.
Yes. We are.
We are young with to have learned tech at an early age, but old enough that the tech wasn’t user friendly when we were kids, so we needed to understand it better than people do in the smartphone generation.
Installing a new game on my PC in high school was a multi-hour, sometimes multi-day ordeal.
Plugging in a secondary hard drive involved putting jumpers on pins to keep the system from trying to boot off it.
Assigning ports on peripherals involved understanding how to count in binary so you could assign addresses on dip switches.
Installing a printer involved unholy alliances with formless beings.
Every 2-3 years, I still wake up wearing black robes in a strange room in Romania, blood on my hands and a lingering scent of cordite in the air. I’m fairly certain that’s related to the Canon BJC driver issues I had upgrading my AST to Windows 95.
Random BSOD from changing… absolutely fucking nothing, then spending 2 days trying to recover, before saying fuck it and reinstalling windows, so you can play WC1 or D1…good old days.
Also printers can suck it. 20 years ago maintaining a fucking print server was bullshit… I’d rather deal with BES for another 100 years.
Sometimes I’d put a floppy disk in. It had 1.jpg crushed down to be 256 colors. Pam Anderson.
For the longest time it would crash windows 95 when I put it in the drive and opened the folder.
It had a “-” dash in the title…I took that out and no more blue screening.
Thanks Bill Gates…
I’d rather deal with BES for another 100 years.
Cool it, Mario… oh, the menus -shivers-
Lol I might have to take that back…BES was a pile of epic smoldering shit…even the engineers would tell me it was shit. I’m pretty sure I reinstalled that damn thing a thousand times. It was like winning the lottery when the CEO finally wanted and iPhone and then forced the reset of the company to android or iPhone… myself and my junior admin had beers in the office when we got the last user off it and got to shut it down on a Friday. Best day ever.
The hardest thing I remember having to do to install games was if they were DOS games and you have to manually assign all the hardware ports or whatever (I remember one for “IRQ?”) for the game every time you ran it and if you fucked it up, it wouldn’t have a picture or wouldn’t have sound or they would be fucked up.
Not quite old enough to have actually had to type in the program after buying the game on a book. That would have been rad!
Installing a printer is still often a deal with the devil
Yeah. I’ve had to return printers that wouldn’t let me install drivers without also agreeing to install spyware.
More likely from soundcard settings than printer settings. If you’re channelling, its due to wrong number of channels selected.
That’s the weird thing. I used Soundblaster cards, and those blackouts were usually preceded by nightmares of an anthropomorphic goat. It was handy because you could make arrangements to feed the dog and stuff.
I’m fairly certain that’s related to the Canon BJC driver issues I had upgrading my AST to Windows 95.
I had the biggest flashback right now. I had a Canon BJC 4000 that would only print all the pages if you had two or more empty pages at the end of the document. Never figured that one out, but every so often I open an old Word Doc and find extra empty pages and remember…
I had a boot floppy I needed to use when I wanted to play Sim City 2000 because my PCs usual configuration didn’t have enough free conventional memory.
I had another one for Zone66 because its memory management was incompatible with EMM386.
Installing a printer involved unholy alliances with formless beings.
Lol so true
It’s funny because we always thought that the next generation’s technical knowledge would utterly eclipse ours, but instead they only know how to edit a short video to seem to loop infinitely.
Well in regards to editing short videos that loop, they have definitely eclipsed my skill (and willingness to learn)
I fix my parents’ computers. I fix the computers of the super old people in the neighborhood. I fix my kid’s computer. I fix my friends’ computers.
I don’t think it’s generational.
When your car breaks down, do you fix it? At what point do you take it to a mechanic?
At what point do you call an electrician or plumber? Who biopsies their own cysts?
It’s all the same shit. We live in a society of specialists because there’s simply too much potential knowledge for everyone to be able to do everything.
And if we start arguing about what things people “ought to be able to do themselves”, we turn into a bunch of old farts lamenting about the good old days.
“DIY” is a thing because many strive to understand enough of multiple relevant basic disciplines needed as an adult to be able to cover the first 15% or so of common jobs before they see their limitations and call the specialists.
I believe the expressed frustration here is around the fact that acquiring that first 15% type skill is no longer seen as a responsibility/point of pride for folks to gain as they grow.
I think it depends. Even if I knew a bit about the subject, I would definitely want to hire someone who actually knows what they are doing for something like a gas pipe, where a mistake could be deadly. But people should know things like replacing a light switch, replacing a thermostat and pumping up a car tire.
Yes, you’re making the same point - gas is that “knowing when you reach your limitation” part. But also, being able to push just up against that line and the curiosity/work invested to understand if you’re able to do so is important, and very rewarding. There’s a chance that people are losing that general curiosity to find that line and realize their capabilities are more than they thought prior to trying.
I fix my computers. I fix my car. I’ve done some electrical. No plumbing. And I recently biopsied a cyst that my doctor eyeballed and said was non cancerous and charged me $40 for nothing a year ago. It began annoying me a year later, and I’m stubborn and hate to go the doctor, and that guy was an ass. I’m ok with being called an old fart though. I’m also probably more optimistic about future generations. I don’t think we’re doomed, I remember being a collasal idiot, even as recently as last week, so I give other a little grace.
It’s like we just happened to grow up at the right time where everyone was raised to be a mechanic, and we wonder why our kids don’t fix their own cars.
It is less that and more that we are tired of using baby talk to describe the computer equivalent of “the driver’s side door” or “the steering wheel”.
This actually what drives me nuts about the US. Its like everyone is expected to be a doctor, a lawyer, an investor, a mechanic, an electrician, plumber, IT, and just everything. I look at the old black and white shows where the tv repair man is called and im like. wtf happened to this country.
100% agree.
I’m 50 years old and I am the IT guy for people of all ages. Not because I am part of some gifted generation that understands computers, but because I have a genuine interest and took the time to learn these things.
My 16yo son also has a keen interest in computers and I am passing on my knowledge where I can.
I somewhat feel that attributing computer knowledge to a generational thing in some way diminishes the effort and time it took to get the knowledge and experience that I do have.
You don’t have to have hung around with Henry Ford to be a car guy, or Nikola Tesla to be an electrician.
Yes
Yes.
Yes…
When I was six years old, my dad brought a computer home from work. It had Windows 3.1 on it. I had to learn how to use the DOS command prompt in order to play my favorite game, Q-bert. When I was a teenager, a new computer of middling quality could run north of $3000 from the Best Buy. But my friends introduced me to a catalog where I could buy the parts to assemble one from scratch. They let me borrow their copy of Windows 95 to install. Then we all had to learn how to use dial-up in order to connect to the internet, or how to build out a LAN network to play games together in person. We took classes in touch-typing at school, using the computer lab. I went to computer camp during the summer. I went to college and took more advanced classes on programing.
I have spent tens of thousands of hours learning to use the computer, practically from the inception of the PC to the modern day.
Now my friends have kids, and I talk about how they use the computer. Everything is out-of-the-box. Installing something is as simply as clicking an icon. You can buy a mini-computer off the shelf for under $200 and it runs better than anything I could have built thirty years ago. Periodically, they will come to me with a more advanced computer program, which has to do with a very particular OS configuration or some weird networking bug that only someone with 10+ years of experience would think to look for. I typically find the answer online, because I don’t remember it off the top of my head. I teach the kid and the kid learns, and then the kid knows as much as I do on that particular subject.
In twenty years, I’m sure they’ll know more than me, just because I’ll be retired and they’ll be in the thick of it.
Also, please nobody ask me how a car works. That was something my parents’ generation learned. I’m clueless.
Since you mentioned cars, here is a theory my coworker told me that I think makes a lot of sense.
Our parents were the last generation to learn about cars because back then you needed to know how a car worked in order to own one. Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
We are the last generation to learn how computers work since we needed to know how a computer worked in order to use it. Now computers are too simple to use and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
Obviously not saying nobody today knows how cars or computers work, but it is a lot less common. Anybody who learns about cars or computers today do it because of personal interest, not because of necessity.
Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
Yes, same thing between computing hardware (I’m not gonna say computers, because for a lot of people nowadays, their only device is their smartphone) and cars. It used to be that things were more complicated to use, but easier to repair, so a large percentage of users could also repair their things.
Nowadays, you don’t even need to know how to check your oil level because the car will tell you if it’s low. You might not even have a dipstick. And with service intervals being 25000km and more, how much are you REALLY saving by doing your own oil change and stuff? I still do it, but
Similarly - as a kid, I had to fix small issues that popped up with Windows XP ALL the time. Couldn’t connect to any website? Flush the DNS cache. No connectivity at all? ipconfig /release and ipconfig /renew. Mouse stopped working AGAIN? Use the keyboard to navigate to devices, reinstall mouse driver.
If I was growing up right now, I’d have no idea how things work, because they JUST DO. So you don’t learn a lot anymore. As for cars, I still learned because I grew up poor, so my first car was around 500 euros and I did everything myself.
Decided on a whim to fix up an old car from the 80s. I was able to tear it down to the frame and reassemble it with not much more than a set of imperial wrenches. That’s a bit of an oversimplification but not much. And while there was a lot that could go wrong there was nothing that was a black box where you could get to a point where if something was wrong you would throw up your hands and say, “Oh, well. Guess this is garbage now!” Different time, I guess.
Yup, now you spend several hundred on a Chinese clone of whatever factory diagnostics tool allows you to code modules and such. And there are still probably things you can’t touch.
Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
I mean, I’d argue they’re too complex. But I agree, you need so many specialized widgets (many that vary by brand and model) that its impractical to do more than change the oil.
I was looking at a Model A on display at a dealership when I went car shopping recently. They had the engine open, and I was looking at the thing thinking “If you sent me this in a box as a ‘Build your own car’ kit, I’m pretty sure I could do it”.
Sorry I meant simple to use. Repair and maintenance is very complex. You often can not even do some maintenance since you need specialized tools or software that only mechanics have access to.
Local Area Network Network.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
I’m going to interpret that last “network” as that extra f-ing 50 ohm bnc terminator that you’re pretty sure you don’t need, until you’re about to learn something about coax impedence matching.
RAS syndrome
ATM machine
As a millenial nurse watching gen z new grads hunt and peck with their index fingers to write a shift note, 100%. I don’t think my parents really appreciated how much constantly being on AIM with my friends as a tween actually really benefited my typing skills in a way that’s been much more valuable to my career than algebra.
All the math you need to be a nurse is ratio / proportion and kitchen measurements to track I/O. With a modern EMR system (electronic medical record) that does most of the math for you you don’t even need that. The rest is latin and greek root words for various body parts and fluids and a vague understanding of how they’re all related (hyper-tension in the cerebral is bad because the cerebral is surrounded by a bone case and bones no stretch. That means the cerebral pops out of the bone holes and once it’s done that it does NOT go back in correctly like a squeezy ball toy). That gets you through the board exams.
After a year or two in practice you’ve just seen the same shit with a millimeter of difference over and over and over that you either know what to do about it or who to call to do something about it. And when shit is about to go REALLY wrong that’s also happened enough times that you get a weird feeling and just start calling everybody because your psych patient has been trying to kill you for the past week and an hour ago they suddenly stopped trying to kill you and now you have to explain to an RRT nurse (rental ICU nurse) why you’re upset that the patient isn’t trying to kill you.
Gotta love it when you come into a bit of a bitch & moan article about Tech and end up learning something new about Human Physiology and Medicine.
Cheers for that!
Another fun fact: the psychiatric term for my speech pattern (well, typing, but they’re both revealing of thought content), is “tangential!” It can be indicative of mania or psychosis but in this case it’s just ADHD so bad the neuropsychiatrist thought I was faking for drugs. They said my recent memory tests like I have dementia (sort of, mostly the rote part when they ask if you remember the random words they told you at the beginning). I’m really good at a bunch of the hands-on stuff but the EMR really saves my bacon on remembering everything.
Well, if I understood it correctly, my mother is very much like that (for example: it’s very hard to keep her on track to get to the end of a story without her getting lost of some lateral explanation about an explanation about a relativelly unimportant detail in the main story) and even I tended to work like that in the past (not so much nowadays), so your whole post for me was easy peasy to follow and a satisfying learning experience because it went into all sorts of interesting places :)
Judging by the upvotes from others, I would say I’m far from the only one.
It probably helps that here and in this post you’re basically talking about complex and interesting things to a pool of people with lots of above average intelligence, Education and/or curiosity ones.
Our parents didn’t think it was important. Our kids don’t think it is necessary.
Imagine how horse farmers felt about engine maintenance on the first automobiles. Early adopters probably knew everything about how to fix tractors and cars. But today, how many people know how to change their own brakes or flush the coolant?
Life evolves, and transitions come faster with every generation. It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
or a fax machine
Healthcare industry is crying in the corner
I’m still mad we print so much stuff at work, it’s 2024 just update a spread sheet. I don’t need an email much less a physical copy of something I saw the update for an hour ago
I had to print out a PDF the other day because the software wouldn’t let me sign it, and then scan the document back into the computer.
My dad thought computers were important. He got me a VIC-20 soon as they came out, and that was $1,800 in today’s money, not an amount he spent lightly.
Sure, obviously there were exceptions or we wouldn’t have half the modern conveniences we do. My parents were very enthusiastic about computers, and my kids are each building their own desktops. I’m speaking in generalities.
It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
Modern Naval officers are taught to do navigation by starlight for backup purposes. Cause GPS ain’t that infallible.
It’s certainly partially that, but that’s not the whole picture. Before, every old thing “everyone” knew how to do was replaced with a new thing “everyone” knew how to do. But at the moment, is there a new thing? I can’t think of one. All but the most niche products are built to be as easy to use as possible, and if it breaks or slows down, replacement is more preferred than tinkering. I don’t see the same need anywhere to get our hands dirty that leads to widespread proficiency like the image is talking about.
Farmers right now are fighting a legal battle for the ability to repair their own tractors.
It’s not good for farm equipment to be locked down and sealed off just like it’s not good for operating systems to be locked down and sealed off.
I agree with you on that. I’d also like to be able to replace the battery on my phone or control my social media. But that wasn’t really my point. Disposable goods are bad for consumers and bad for the environment, along with fast fashion, factory farming, corporate conglomeration, and the vertical integration of news media.
And I think that’s the new frontier, which is really just reclaiming the old frontier from the profit-takers. People are learning to sew and knit, how to cook, how to farm, how to repair their stuff, and how to evaluate propaganda. That’s the shit our kids will say we never bothered to learn, and if they do it right, maybe their kids won’t have to learn.
I still know how to use a fax machine :(
I think the modern car climate is a better comparison than the change from horse and buggy to Model T. Many people work on their own cars, but it’s mostly for fun and the increasing levels of computers and sensors in cars makes it more difficult to do all the work yourself. And then you add in the nuts and bolts car companies make that can only be unscrewed using special tools that the companies also make to force you to bring the car to one of their dealerships.
Tech literacy rates are falling like the skill to use a car with a manual transmission. Since everything kids do is on their phone, and phones are like that one car company that welded the hoods of their cars shut, they never need to pick up the skills with computer software that the work world expects them to have (but who really wants to know how to use Word and Excel anyways), nor the skills with working on your own hardware.
Sidenote: Fax machines are, unfortunately, still very much a thing. At least, if you ever have to deal with the federal government or the medical industry, they are.
